During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Well, probably... I doubt the Wisely series could have 7 keepers (hence, no need for a separate page)
Another one of those movies, 1992's The Cat, has an evil fungus-alien who's a potential keeper, but for other Wisely movies (like Bury Me High note and 1987's Legend of Wisely note ) I doubt there are anymore candidates in the series
I haven't seen the two prequels, Young Wisely 1 and 2, but there you go
Edited by RobertTYL on Sep 7th 2021 at 9:28:27 PM
Eh, genocide seems pretty unique, sure to them.
Edited by DemonDuckofDoom on Sep 7th 2021 at 6:48:44 AM
My opinion remains the same on films in a series: I'm cool with putting up good keepers from their own films... if a later flick makes it a problem let's talk about it then.
Yes to R & K.
I have another obscure Marvel animated bad guy to discuss, from the Bizzare cartoon, Spider-Man Unlimted, where Marvel tried to rip off Batman Beyond and stuck Spidey on Counter-Earth, fighting the High Evolutionary and his hordes of Beastials, who dominated the planet and treat humanity like second class citizens.
Who is Sir Ram? What has done?
Sir Ram is the cruelest and sadistic among the High Evolutionary Beastial servants, a Mad Scientist who looks down on humans and is willing to experiment on them.
We see him willing to torture Spider-Man to remove his mask (his mask is bonded to him through nanite tech in this series), we see him kidnap a young boy and experiment on him, leaving him a shell-shocked freak in the present. Sir Ram later captures several humans and plans to experiment on them, when Spidey frees they plan to kill Sir Ram, Spidey saves Sir Ram, making Sir Ram resent him even more.
When Spider-Man finds one of the High Evolutionary's Machine Men, number X-51, his robot servants, willing to turn against them, Sir Ram kidnaps X-51 and plans to take him apart, despite him being sentient. Spidey rescues him, but later Sir Ram uses a control device to force X-51 to kill several of the humans resisting the High Evolitonary's rule. Later the High Evolutionary's forces kidnap Spidey and the High Evolutionary orders that Spidey to taken to his castle, but Sir Ram decides to take Spidey to his lab instead, planning to forcible convert Spider-Man into his personal mind-controlled zombie, delighting in how painful these experiments will be, but Spidey is freed by the rebels.
In the final episodes, the High Evolutionary plans to attack humans and their homes in Counter NYC, with Sir Ram taking delight in destroying human homes, whether the humans flee in time or not doesn't matter to him, to the disgust of Lord Tyger, another Beastial servants who sympathize with humans and Sir Ram cannot wait to get rid of him. When the High Evolutionary reveals he plans to destroy the humans of Counter-Earth with a sonic weapon, Sir Ram spends the rest of the episode with a sadistic grin on his face. Spidey defeats the High Evolutionary and the series ends on a cliffhanger, so Sir Ram's final fate is unknown.
Is he heinous by the standards of the work?
This series is dark for a kid's cartoon. The High Evolutionary is a tyrant who wants to destroy the Counter-Earth humans and has Beastials he created, but considered inferior to be sent away as slaves and have their genetic material recycled.
Venom and Carnage are on this series, playing invasion of the body snatchers, wanting to have symbiotes assimilate the planet.
However, Sir Ram has fewer resources than those other villains and clearly willing to experiment on humans, including children, and torture Spidey several times. He clearly approves of the High Evolutionary's genocidal schemes and wants to help him achieve him.
Any Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?
I don't think so, he was willing to work with Spidey and the rebels to save Counter NYC from a bomb he designed, that was accidentally activated by a rebel who stole it. But that seems like pragmatic villainy to me, to save his own skin, and the fact that the rebel who stole the bomb was once a young boy he experimented on shows him in a sinister light in this episode.
He expresses contempt of the High Evolutionary behind his back and considers more honorable Beastials like Lord Tyger to be weak, he clearly has moral agency and no regard for anyone.
Spidey saves Sir Ram several times, but Sir Ram always just resents him for it.
Final Verdict?
Keep this Ram Man.
Carnage is in this series, but he is kinda weird, more interested in infecting people with symbiotes than killing them, and calls Venom his brother at one point. But he tries to kill several people when the Venom symbiote is separated from Brock and fights with Venom briefly when he tries to kill people Brock has gotten close to.
Edited by Overlord on Sep 7th 2021 at 8:02:02 AM
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Damn I remember this show! Was planning to look into it sometime
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
there
Yes to Sir Ram.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Best Smile
Yes to the Ram
to the Jha'Dur quote and Sir Ram.
@STARCRUSHER99: Not too sure on this, but I don't believe that we need to mark his appearance there, if the comic was just an adaptation of the film. As far as I've seen, entries don't list the adaptations where they commit the same crimes, like how Agatha Trunchbull doesn't list her film counterpart or how the literatuve version of IT doesn't list the 1990 miniseries.
I'm also fine with organizing by medium for the King King page.
Edited by DrUnknown on Sep 8th 2021 at 12:05:05 PM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to Sir Ram. Does the High Evolutionary himself count?
EDIT: Anyone count in the following?
- Kingdom: Ashin of the North: August 5, 2021 (G-Editor)
- Superman & Lois: August 31, 2021 (Forenperser and Lightysnake)
- Blaster Master Zero III: August 12, 2021 (finalsurvivor1)
- Fantasian: August 27, 2021 (Beneficii)
Edited by ACW on Sep 8th 2021 at 5:22:46 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Yeah, you can get rid of Blaster Master. No one counts.
Edited by finalsurvivor1 on Sep 8th 2021 at 6:26:20 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The High Evolutionary claims to care for his Beastials, but his actions show that be conditional and dubious.
What is more clear is that he cares about his long lost granddaughter when he finds her, despite her being a rebel.
There is Carnage, who may be too weird to count, going from a Serial Killer in the comics to wanting to cause Borg style assimilation here. He does call Venom his brother, but briefly attacks him. He seems more alien than usual here. He seems to be a caretaker for some baby symibiotes as well.
Edited by Overlord on Sep 8th 2021 at 4:12:01 AM
to Sir Ram.
Goku Black
Sir ram
Isnt he also interchangeable with Venom too from memory.
Carnage has a few unique crimes for himself, when looking for Venom, Carnage threatens to kill civilians in a Subway station and Carnage is about kill Peter Parker's land lady and her young son until Venom saved them.
Messenger from another dimension.
Yes to Sir Ram. Also, slightly off topic but very fun fact; A year ago, a character from Mindhunters was proposed and approved and since I did not pay attention at the time, I have a very fun fact to share; the brother of his victim, Kevin Bright... I know the actor who played him personally. In fact, he is actually a good friend of mine (though, haven't seen each other in 3 years).
The wifi here sucks
OK so now that it's the 8th I can finally talk about the awesomeness that is Psychonauts 2 with an EP for a character I'm very unsure on.
What’s the Work?
Psychonauts 2 is the kickass sequel to the equally kickass game Psychonauts (as well as a direct continuation of the VR game Rhombus of Ruin). The game follows Razputin Aquato, a psychic child who at the end of the first game, saved the world from an evil plot and was made a Psychonaut (basically psychic secret agents). At the end of the first game Raz is sent off to save Truman Zanatto, the head of the Psychonauts who was kidnapped by the Depraved Dentist Dr. Loboto, during the events of the Rhombus of Ruin, Raz saved Truman and captured Loboto but Truman was left in a coma. In the 2nd game, the Psychonauts investigate who hired Loboto to kidnap Truman, and discover that the plot is connected to the founding of the Psychonauts, where the founders battled an evil Psychic named Maligula in the country of Grulovia.
Who is Gristol Malik and what does he do?
Gristol is the mastermind behind Truman’s kidnapping and the last known member of the Malik family. His father was the Gzar of Grulovia in the past and Grisol enjoyed a life of luxury where he ate caviar all of the time. However a war broke out in Grulovia and one day Gristol was attacked by soldiers but was saved by the psychic Lucrecia Mux, who became the minister of war. After the war ended, there were still a lot of people who disliked the Gzar and things escalated when Lucrecia accidentally caused a dam to break and kill dozens of protestors, including her sister, and the trauma caused her to become the insane Maligula. Eventually Maligula became so powerful and unstable that the Gzar ordered her executed but that failed and his family fled the country. Maligula continued to kill people before the founders of the Psychonauts, led by Ford Cruller who was Lucrecia’s former lover, defeated her and Ford altered Lucrecia’s mind to make her think that she was someone else. When the Gzar died he told Gristol that Maligula was still alive and Gristol, upset over losing his lavish lifestyle and seemingly not aware of the entire story, grew to hate the Psychonauts for stopping Maligula as well as his father for “abandoning” her.
This takes us to the events of the games where Gristol infiltrated the psychonauts under the name Nick Johnsmith and had Loboto kidnap Truman and then put Gristol’s brain inside Truman’s body while hiding Truman’s brain in a briefcase. At the same time, Gristol also tampered with Loboto’s unstable mind and left so traumatized that he physically couldn’t reveal who hired him and was scared that Maligula would hurt him if he did. While in Truman’s body, Gristol manipulated Raz into fixing Ford’s broken mind (he deliberately messed up his own mind to forget what he did to Lucrecia) which led to Ford and Raz attempting to seal Maligula inside of Lucrecia’s mind so she’d be back to her normal self. However Gristol showed up (still in Truman’s body) to tamper with the process and Raz travelled into his mind to figure out what was going on.
The inside of Gristol’s mind is a theme park ride similar to It’s a Small World which tells Gristol’s version of what happened to Maligula and reveals his plans to release her and use her to take over Grulovia as the new Gzar so he could reclaim his decadent lifestyle. Gristol’s tampering causes Maligula to awaken, however instead of helping Gristol, she instead attempts to murder all of the psycics nearby. Raz is able to stop Maligula and seal her away while Gristol is arrested, still refusing to admit he was in the wrong in the postgame.
Mitigating Factors?
None, he’s a self interested Psychopathic Manchild who’s only interested in his own power and ability to live in luxury. He openly admits to hating his father and while he calls Maligula a hero, it’s clear that he only admires her as a tool to be used to gain power and he brushes off Raz’s warnings that she’s just a mentally ill woman who needs help. The inside of his mind shows that he’s Believing His Own Lies that Gulovia was a great country ruined by the Psychonauts but his justification for why it was great is that he was happy there and he clearly doesn’t actually care for what happened to the people. There is one scene where Raz meets a version of him from the day his father died and he’s actually nice to Raz if he says he’s Grulovian and gives him some caviar as they toast to Grulovia, however this falls flat for a few reasons, firstly this is explicitly a version of him from years ago and in the modern day he has no issues hurting Raz even when he learns that Raz is related to Maligula, plus he’s shown very clearly to not care about the Grulovians Maligula killed in the past.
Is he heinous enough?
Here’s where the issue with him lies, his actions amount to kidnapping and effectively impersonating Truman, Mind Raping Loboto to keep him quiet, and attempting to release an unstable mass murderer so he can use her as an enforcer to put himself back into power. He’s clearly aware that Maligula is dangerous, he witnessed at least two different massacres she committed and when Raz warned him that his father turned Lucrecia into a monster, he replies that he turned a “country girl into a warrior” and that he’s going to do it again so he has no delusions about what his end goal entails.
The first issue is the explicitness of his plan, the game never outright states that his plan will entail a lot of deaths but the whole ‘I’m going to do to Maligula what my father did and then use the mass murderer to conquer a country’ I think makes it clear that his end goal is not a pleasant one, especially given his warped view of Maligula as a “hero” being built on her killing the people who threatened Gristol in the past. The other issue is the actual in universe standard which is bad. Maligula herself killed hundreds with her psychic powers, and Gristol’s own father was a tyrant whose terrible rule caused the citizens to protest his actions, and he responded by sicing Maligula on them. However the Gzar was a dictator and Maligula was an extremely powerful Psychic who was only barely stopped by six of the most powerful psychics in the world, Gristol by contrast is just one guy with zero psychic powers and only one person working for him (and said person is held captive for the entire 2nd game), so I think he may stand out since his entire plan boils down to gaining the power to do the terrible things he’s unable to do on his own.
Conclusion?
I’m very unsure on him so I’ll leave him to you guys.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
OK, I finished the Warhammer 40k fanfic yesterday and after thinking about it, unfortunately, I think that neither Artarion, nor Randar count (even though Randar comes close in my opinion).
I mentioned that we shouldn't judge the story by the standards of the canon and I still stand by this statement.
However, the main problem is that the Warp Storm that the warlocks try to create to ruin the sector of the Ultramarines is a shared crime between 9 warlocks and even though 7 of them don't appear, the story doesn't explicitly treat any of them as being more responsible than the others (even though Artarion shows narcissistic pride and thinks that this action would prove his "superiority" and intelligence).
Aside from that, there was a moment in the story where a female warlock who in the past had ruined an entire sector and has killed many people (this is at least as bad as what the 9 warlocks tried to accomplish even if it happens off-screen and is not delved into) appears and talks to Inquisitor Daniels. Plus, the female warlock in question is given some VERY small amount of sympathy because she is tormented by Tzeentch, so this also makes me doubt the CM status of Artarion and Randar.
Randar does get some additional heinous points for inflicting a Fate Worse than Death on his entire crew. However, the Laughing God also tortures the Harlequins that have "disappointed" him and inflicts a Fate Worse than Death on them. Plus, it's revealed that he kills the Harlequins he likes to take over their bodies (and sometimes the process is very painful), so I don't think Randar's crime stands out that much.
So, I am advocating to cut Artarion and I apologise again for being so hasty when I proposed him a few weeks ago.
Edited by WatTambor on Sep 8th 2021 at 5:40:25 PM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
No worries.
And honestly, while the canon heinous standard should probably at least be considered, the Warp Storm seems bad enough; it's the fact that it's a shared crime that's the issue, IMO.
Two housekeeping issues:
- At Monster: Halloween...didn't someone propose a reformat?
- Any way to merge these 2?
- Hitman (2016)'s "Patient Zero": Oybek Nabazov, the leader of Liberation, is a man deeply obsessed with death, suicide and rebirth. Over the last three decades he has founded several cults, led them down a self-destructive path that resulted in seven mass suicides, leaving the remains behind to start anew. When the former virologist Owen Cage helped the cult create a deadly virus, Nabazov intended to have some of his most fanatical followers inject themselves with the virus to cause several outbreaks around the globe in a coordinated attack. When Agent 47 arrives in Bangkok to assassinate him, he has begun brainwashing a new group of unaware cult recruits with the intention of having them spread the virus to Bangkok and beyond.
- Hitman (2016)'s "Patient Zero": Sister Yulduz, the "chosen sister", is the second-in-command of the Liberation cult. Pretending to be a devout follower of Nabazov she helped organizing the cult attacks, while secretly having invested large amounts of money into security and pharmacy companies to profit from the chaos caused by the virus outbreaks. Showing no loyalty towards Nabazov or the cult, she already made plans to escape and leave them to their fates as soon as they begin their attacks.
Edited by ACW on Sep 8th 2021 at 11:10:24 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Moron
Let's not miss the EP guys - that being said, I think I'm just gonna abstain. I'm not familiar with the franchise, and slight vagueness combined with a high heinous standard gives me pause. Cut the Warhammer guy.
As for Halloween, yes, 43 suggested a re-format to break up the Myers tree like we do Palpatine, so I suggested this:
Franchise Wide
- 1/summary
Individual Films
- Cochran
- 2 & 4-6
- Wynn
- 2 & H20
- 2018
Comic Books
- Comic 1
- Comic 2
Sure, cut.
I may have another Michael Myers for this coming Halloween, too...god knows these novels were hard enough to find
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
That works. Mind making the changes (assuming everyone's okay with them)?
Oh, dang, guess that should be under a Wisely tree?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts