During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
You're alright, it probably was discussed when he was first discussed.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Red Eye.
So I just finished watching Lie to Me shame it got cancelled in its third season as my dad and I enjoyed watching it. Now I dont have any new candidates to discuss, but there is one current candidate that I may be considering to cut namely Paul Russel from the episode "Blinded".
Dont get me wrong what Paul does is horrible being a Serial Rapist who blinds his victims, but the problem is so was was his predecessor Andrew Jenkins who not only Paul copied his MO off of but had fewer victims compared to Jenkins.
Then you get to the other cms on the list who actually killed people unlike Jenkins and Russel (Personick manipulated women to become Breeding Slaves before goading them to kill themself, Nabil Kahn killed 40+ people including his own cousin, Martin tortured and killed countless women)
That said perhaps Russel could still stay on the bases the MO is So horrific that it he can still stay even if he does duplicate his predecessor's actions but with fewer victims may have and that he marries one of Jenkin's victims so that he could be close to one of his masterpieces but we had a few candidates who got cut due to still not standing out even if they had one unique
Anywho its a tough call for me which is why I thought to bring him up what do you guys think, should Russel be cut or keep?
Edited by G-Editor on Aug 16th 2021 at 12:10:36 PM
Angra, Ursus, Manson and Red Eye
Unsure on Russel
Gentle Laborer
Angra, Ursus, Mason and Red Eye
Having played God Hand dozens of times, I share the exact same opinion on Azel's "redemption".
to Angra, Red Eye, Rev, Manson and Ursus.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Sure to Red Eye.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Yes to Red Eye
Since he was approved, here is the writeup:
Planet of the Apes (2001) PC and PS version: General Ursus is the leader of the gorillas and the one of the members of Ape High Council. Seeing gorillas as superior to other Apes, Ursus discovered that Professor Cornelius managed to find a way to use human's dna to improve ape's genetic code. Forcing Professor Cornelius to work for him and continue his experiments on captured humans, Ursus planned to "enchance" the gorillas and create and unbeatable army, which he intended to use it to completely wipe out humanity and take over the Ape society, slaughtering any Ape, who will try to resist his rule. When Ulysses humiliated him and stole the results of Cornelius' research, Ursus ordered his gorillas to attack a human village and wipe out most of the humans there.
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Aug 16th 2021 at 9:56:46 PM
to red eye
And after reading the entries of all the keepers from Lie to Me I am inclined to cut Paul Russel because he is not even the worst in his own epiode.
to Angra, Ursus, Charles and Red Eye.
Btw, what does anyone think about this image of Eric Sacks
Got another image of Daryll Lee Cullum and 2 images of Kraang Prime which are much less ambiguous
Edited by The-Scarecrow on Aug 17th 2021 at 11:49:08 PM
The Emperor of Evil!
I personally find the Eric Sacks image too ambiguous on what's happening.
Edited by Powermaster201 on Aug 17th 2021 at 3:36:52 PM
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Angra, Red Eye, Reverend, Charles Manson and Ursus.
to the Reverend, Angra, General Ursus, Charles Manson, and the Demon's Red Eye.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to the Lucien image, the NOS-4-R-2 quote (doesn't sound heinous enough to justify its length), the Arnim Zola quote, the Eric Sacks image, and the Daryll Lee Cullum image (the blur kind of ruins it for me).
Red Eyes
Been a while since I've done an Arrowverse candidate here. So here's one I got for y'all: Stanley Dover aka the Star City Slayer from Arrow.
Who is Stanley Dover and what has he done?
Stanley Dover is introduced as an inmate incarcerated in Slabside prison alongside Oliver when he was imprisoned in Season 7.
His backstory involves his parents trying to discipline him by giving him 'medicine' (a special form of paralysis drug), before hitting Stanley. His brother would support him and even takes his punishments in his place a few times. Eventually Stanley kills his parents, before his horrified brother tried to send him to Arkham to give him help, only for Stanley to kill him too.
Stanley would go onto become a Serial Killer. His M.O. is to get close to a 'big brother' figure and obsesses over them like a yandere. He would then start killing every person in this man's life associated with him from friends, family, and enemies, with Stanley claiming it's to 'protect' them. But eventually he decides even the 'brother' doesn't deserve his protection and he kills them too. He would then move onto a new 'brother' and start over.
His kills involve injecting his victims with a paralysis poison (the same one his parents used) so they can't fight back, then slashing their throats with a knife. He refers to this process as 'correcting' his victims. His criminal record from his previous crimes showcase the speed of his kills being about "8 victims in 2 months".
By the time of the present day, he has already done this routine at least 3 times, giving him a confirmed bodycount of at least mid to high 30s. At some point he was convicted and incarcerated in Slabside prison.
He first meets Oliver and at first seems like a fanboy of the Green Arrow and tries to become Oliver's sidekick. Oliver at first coldly pushes him away not wanting any attachments or chances of compromising his parole. Oliver went so far to let Stanley get beaten up by Brick's gang by refusing their instructions. This combined with the fact that Stanley firmly insists he is an innocent man who was wrongly convicted, is what finally guilts Oliver into letting Stanley get close to him.
Stanley would continue assisting Oliver throughout the Prison arc, ecstatic he gets to help out the Green Arrow, as well as enjoying the benefit of other prisoners staying away from him. However eventually, Stanley gets accused of killing one of the prison guards as he was the last one seen near him. Stanley insists he is innocent, but is locked up in isolation.
Oliver tries to prove Stanley's innocence, believing Brick or one of his men did it. He eventually finds a blood-stained knife belonging to Ben Turner near the scene of the crime and alerts the guards, leading to Turner to be locked up in Stanley's place. Stanley is freed and happily thanks Oliver, but Oliver notices that Stanley knew it was "Turner's knife" despite him being locked up at the time of Oliver's discovery. Tipping Oliver off that Stanley was indeed the killer.
On the day that Oliver is to be released, Stanley asks if Oliver's friends could pull a few strings to help get him out too. But now knowing the truth, Oliver refuses to associate with Stanley and tells him he is exactly where he deserves to be. Soon Ricardo Diaz attacks the prison, infiltrating the place disguised as one of the guards, frees every single prisoner from their cells.
While Oliver tries to stop the guards from being killed, he gets ambushed by Stanley in the infirmary, who drugs Oliver and then ties his hands up. Oliver awakens to an unhinged Stanley rambling how he just wanted to be Oliver's sidekick and that it wasn't his fault in killing the guard. However Stanley accidentally reveals that he also killed more people prior to the guard, making Oliver realize that Stanley is in fact a Serial Killer. Oliver proceeds to kick Stanley over, sets himself free, and locks him in the infirmary.
At the aftermath of the prison riot, Brick attempts to escape the prison via the morgue. However he is followed by Stanley. Unaware that Stanley has a knife, Brick tries to climb through but is stabbed and killed by Stanley midway. Stanley then escapes himself.
Stanley disappears for several episodes, during which he has started a killing spree leading the media to dub him the "Star City Slayer", a name he despises.
When focusing on Oliver, Stanley identifies all the members of Team Arrow and starts sending them ominous notes containing death threats to his would-be victims, as well as starting by killing people he considers to be Oliver's enemies, including a corrupt politician.
When Team Arrow don't back down and come looking for him, Stanley awaits them in the abandoned mansion serving as his hideout. He manages to sneak up on Dinah Drake and slits her throat, before fleeing. He later said he "only had time to correct one", meaning he would have killed all of them if given more time.
He finally arrives at Oliver's house, where he releases his 'medicine' through the vents to paralyze Oliver, Felicity, and his son William. He then breaks in, seemingly glad to finally see Oliver and meet his family. He tells Oliver that he is doing this to 'protect Oliver' and that no one else knows him better than him.
However, Stanley soon drops his friendly tone and becomes aggressive, considering he needs to correct Felicity too. His affection for Oliver then dries up, filled with rage he tells Oliver that he doesn't listen either and doesn't deserve his protection. The final straw was when Felicity calls him the Star City Slayer, where he charges to kill her. Before Oliver having overcoming the paralysis grabs a bottle and knocks him out. Stanley is reimprisoned in Slabside.
Mitigating Factors?
Let's get the major issue out of the way. Yes, Stanley does have a Freudian Excuse. He grew up with Abusive Parents who disciplined him very harshly. So the question is, does his heinousness overshadow his Freudian excuse? To answer this, there are a few points I'll raise. Throughout his abusive childhood, he was constantly supported by his brother, who would go so far as to even take the punishment in his place at times. Said brother never devolves to his level, and remains firmly a good person. Furthermore, his brother has done nothing but care for Stanley. Even after Stanley kills his parents, his brother tries to have him sent to Arkham so he can receive help. Stanley should have no reason to want to harm him, yet he kills his brother too.
Now make no mistake, Stanley is unhinged and does give some psychotic ramblings. He constantly pleas that he has done nothing wrong and that he's an innocent man. But the fact he was able to keep such a convincing act to Oliver for so long and was willing to frame someone else for murder, that makes it very clear he has an understanding of right and wrong. This and the fact that he firmly states that the people he killed "don't deserve to live". He is just in adamant denial over doing anything wrong, refusing to see anything past his It's All About Me mentality.
In spite of his sob story, In-Universe there is not a single character (save for the brother he killed) who sympathies with Stanley at all. It's even stated by characters that he is much much worse than his father, so I think it's safe to say Disproportionate Retribution is in play. With all this in mind, IMO Stanley can get a pass on Freudian Excuse Is No Excuse.
Heinous Standard
I think it's common knowledge that Arrowverse's heinous standard is colossal. You've got villains and mass murderers with crimes ranging from destroying cities to universes. Stanley however by contrast is a very low resources villain. He doesn't have any powers, he doesn't have an army of followers, he doesn't even have any tech outside of stuff anyone can buy. All he has is a knife and his trademark paralysis poison.
He is featured in 7 episodes, 6 of them in prison where he couldn't do much (yet still kills 2 people). However once he is let out he racks up a sizeable bodycount of both present and past kills. In total he is stated to have performed his routine at least 3 times, that's 3 times of killing everyone associated with a 'brother figure' he obsesses over, so at least somewhere in mid to high 30s, plus his attempted kills and the ones that the feds weren't aware of.
Though the body count alone isn't what makes him stand out. It's his incredibly disturbing M.O. of getting close to a person, then killing each and every person in their life that they are close to, followed by said person themselves. Inflicting this much pain on such a personal level, now that's very unique. The only other person who has done that is Adrian Chase (who had a tonne more resources), and even he only targeted one man and those around them. Stanley does this to every big brother figure he can find.
Strictly comparing him to street level CMs like Count Vertigo and Trickster, who utilized a Mind Rape drug and bombs respectively. Stanley is just a guy with a knife, yet still manages to stack up to them. This guy simply will not stop killing and killing and killing, while making sure he hurts the person he gets close to in every way possible.
Visibility? Played For Laughs?
His crimes have tonnes of visibility: We first see him stabbing Brick as a foreshadowing of who he is. We then see him drugging and killing a guy during his killing spree. The heroes view his criminal report showcasing his previous murders in Central City. The mansion he had been hiding has blood splattered across the bathroom. We see him fatally slit Dinah's throat. Then he gasses Oliver and his wife and son, where he came very close to stabbing them too.
Stanley is never played for laughs and after he takes over as the Star City Slayer, he is played up as straight horror, especially the scene where Team Arrow investigate his mansion. While the show baited us into thinking Stanley was a pathetic weakling, this was later revealed to be an act. He is far worse than the rest of the inmates, managing to be Eviler than Thou to Brick.
Final verdict?
Hands down one of Arrow's darkest villains to date
Edited by Snowy66 on Aug 17th 2021 at 4:34:34 AM
Yes to Pink Eye ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
and Stand-Over
Dover
Cut Russel.
Captain Pinkie Pie! Nah, just Pinkie Pie.
Red Eye and Dover
Can't say much on Russell; I'm not really familiar with that series.
to Dover
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Dover...I don't know. Definitely seems heinous enough, but...while his Freudian Excuse may not JUSTIFIES his murders, do they explain it? I.E. would he've become a killer otherwise?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Never elaborated on. Only thing that's clear is his method of killing is copied from what his parents did. We don't get to know what kind of person he was before that, other than maybe a child who misbehaves a lot.
Though I'll add his Freudian Excuse is given through his own monologues, and his statements have often verged into Unreliable Narrator given how long it even took him to admit to being a murderer at all.
Edited by Snowy66 on Aug 17th 2021 at 4:26:41 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hmm, in that case I'll give a tentative yes, but subject to change.
RK: I made the fix in the Sandbox for next week.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Edited by Stellarvore on Aug 16th 2021 at 10:38:16 AM