During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Wild Child
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Wait, why should Paul be cut? He seems like a pretty solid keep.
He has one line indicating he does care about his mother at the end that I had forgotten when I proposed him the first time. His dying words are "look after ma," to his brother
edited 23rd Dec '15 11:35:23 AM by Lightysnake
Well, that's a cut.
You could possibly take it as spiteful sarcasm, which wouldn't be a stretch, but still. Unfortunate that a serial child rapist and serial killer can get cut on one line of dialogue, but that's the breaks.
Wild Child
It is pretty amazing that one line of dialogue is enough to disqualify you.
Speaking of which, how does one tell if a "redeeming" trait is redeeming enough. Such as, say, there's a mass murderer and terrorist, but when a family member comes over, he's reasonably polite to him/her. How far would that have to go for it to be disqualifying?
Why so serious?
'Reasonably polite' can be taken a few ways. I'm not sure it'd necessarily disqualifying
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
If it's just politeness, probably not disqualifying. If it's demonstrated that it's love, then a cut.
Lighty, do you take it as spiteful sarcasm or not? I read it as he was being serious. But yeah, it is amazing how one line of dialogue, or one small scene, is enough to disqualify.
As for Wolfsmund, haven't gotten too far yet. And I wanna start Dredd, but 20 volumes so far (by comparison, Wolfsmund has 6+1 coming out, and Nemesis has a mere 3)! Plus I've got Empowered (is Deathmonger a cut?) and the final book of Department 19. And I'd WANNA read Berserk if it ever concludes. Shin Angyo Onshi seems cool, but no English. And of course Fist of the North Star, but no complete English translation.
edited 23rd Dec '15 12:12:19 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Wild Child
Sort of like how Prime Minister Honest is sometimes amiable with Syura (as long as he doesn't screw up)?
Why so serious?
The issue is Honest showed he doesn't care about Syura at all when Syura actually died. Deathmonger...TBH, not sure. I think one can read a fondness for Manny into her dialogue and actions, but I kinda think waiting to see might be advised...that said, Deathmonger's entry needs serious alteration to coincide with the gender reveal
There are fan translations.
edited 23rd Dec '15 12:14:14 PM by Lightysnake
Wild Child
I think the key difference is "redeeming traits" rather than "redeeming moments".
Like if a serial killer would come across someone looking for directions, and he pointed the person in the right direction. Is that meant to be a redeeming trait, that if he came across someone who needed help, he'd always help them?
No, that could just be taken as them not being in the mood to kill at the moment and not wanting to waste time/draw attention to themselves.
It's just a moment, not a personality trait of the killer.
edited 23rd Dec '15 12:27:30 PM by Clown-Face
Why so serious?
Where is Paul Saetta listed?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Wild Child
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Or for Paul, how his having something about family (i.e. why he didn't involve his son), as Lighty pointed out to me, is probably more about not wanting to commit incest (although that last line of dialogue later on may be a disqualifier).
Or how Mr. Blonde wanting to tip the waitress isn't disqualifying.
Monster.Comic Books and YMMV.Back To Brooklyn, then.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Okay, so here is an odd question I have: Let's say a character inadvertentlyu performs a heroic feat but does not take any ofg the thankls they get since it was unintentional and they are still rotten to the core, say for example, a serial killer with great strength and speed is rescued from near death and healed up in a village, then an evil force comes to try and enslave the village, the serial killer included, and the killer kills the evil force and inadvertently becomes a hero to the village, but the killer makes it clear they do not want their thanks and states that it was not done out of kindness or as an act of graditude for being nursed back to health. The killer then leaves without harming the villagers since they are not in the mood to kill them. Would any of that disqualify them? (no, I do not have an example in mind).
jjj
Nah, they'd still qualify. Complete Monster is about intent; that the evil action had good side effects does not matter one way or another.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Bob, are these thought experiments or do you actually have people to propose?
Here's Zenoc Quah:
- Legacy: Zenoc Quah is a key ally of the One Sith and a fanatic even by the standards of the Yuuzhan Vong. A die-hard supporter of Supreme Overlord Shimmra's, he went into hiding on the ravaged planet Wayland after his leader was killed by Luke Skywalker, declaring the rest of his people to be traitors for brokering peace with the galaxy. He brooded on Wayland for a century before the One Sith gave him an opportunity for revenge, informing him that the Yuuzhan Vong and the Jedi had embarked on a project to repair the words the war had destroyed. Zenoc proceeded to infect the Yuuzhan Vong's biotechnology with a virus, causing it to rampage out of control and kill millions; he also took care to make sure that neither Yuuzhan Vong nor Jedi would be harmed by the toxin, making it seem as though both groups had foreknowledge of the crisis and collapsing public support for them. Zenoc aids Darth Maladi of the One Sith in capturing Cade Skywalker and his girlfriend Deliah Blue, strapping the latter into a torture device which he has calibrated such that Cade's Force healing would cause Deliah greater pain. When a rescue party arrives to save the two, Zenoc attempts to feed the weakest member to his pack of abominations before finally being cut down.
Whew! Long for a guy who's only in three issues!
edited 23rd Dec '15 1:46:48 PM by HamburgerTime
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Ganossa, Abbot, and Makino.
I have three potential CMs who are one-off villains from Angel, Castle, and The Librarians 2014, but I need to rewatch all three episodes before proposing them. I'll get to that after Christmas. I'm still watching the season 2 Big Bads of The Librarians and The Flash (2014), as well.
edited 23rd Dec '15 1:47:03 PM by DeCarta
@Lightysnake: I think thought experiments. This thread is the "master" Complete Monster thread, back in 2011 all other threads including Trope Talk ones were locked down in favour of this one.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
By the way, on Abbott (or however it's spelled), a Freudian Excuse alone is often not enough to disqualify. We have Leigh Emerson (who was gangraped by 5 men on Christmas eve), Mick Taylor (wo was beaten by his father and was traumatised after accidentally getting his sister killed), Junior (who was implied to have been molested), the murderer from La Belle (who was raped by his father, beaten by his mother, and was implied to have been bullied at school), and Nightmare Eclipse (who was tortured by Pony POV Discord for 1000 years).
jjj
Wild Child
I feel that most, or at least half, of all the Complete Monster listed have at least some tragedy in their past.
Why so serious?
How did the La Belle guy make the cut; that sounds awful. Mick sounds like he loved his sister too.
edited 23rd Dec '15 1:59:45 PM by HamburgerTime
A total has-been.
The I-Rex came up again? Really? Again, it's a monstrosity, not a Monster. There's a difference. Man-made monstrosities will usually always have some element of tragedy or moral agency issues unless they go evil in a way that is shown within the narrative to be absolutely, entirely their fault (Ultron, Cell, etc.)
Speaking of which, should we cut Paul Saetta now?
And do enjoy Nemesis. Btw, on Torquemada and Candida...you'll see that stops mattering 'round the end of v5 and 6
If you like that, I'd also strongly recommend you check out Judge Dredd (the first five Complete Case Files are brilliance), as well as Hitman by Ennis. How far in Wolfsmund are you, anyways? If you like thatone, I'd strongly recommend Blade of the Immortal as well.
edited 23rd Dec '15 11:30:21 AM by Lightysnake