Needs Help: Dirty Coward

Dirty Cowards are interesting characters to register and write in reverse-order, but over the years people have seemed to think that having tricks up a character's sleeve is only concerning story-wise when the character bombs something one final time for gross self-preservation purposes and then dies a Karmic Death as a result. Pumping that into Tropes Needing TRS made me realize that the trope has ninja-ing issues as well, with people editing each other's entries under the radar to fit what could constitute a "dirty" coward well, with the only thing I never see mentioned being a Hesitant Sacrifice—which itself has issues with not thriving that I think can be traced directly back to this trope. Just look at how much the laconic page has changed over the years: it's gone full circle, and not in a good way. "Cowards not knowing their place" vs. "Cowards being short-sighted" may even explain the lack of consensus on a page image, in addition to it being hard to distinguish from Lovable Coward otherwise that way, since that itself can be portrayed negatively—and often is, but under this trope.

The wick check that I completed to check for specific misuse gave me this:

22/105 (a mere 21%) describe the trope correctly- that being a character who's only taking any risks if it's for being able to preempt their instincts for their own security, otherwise projecting those risks onto others to the point of them suffering something that's probably even worse

25/105 (24%) are either ninja-ing or just flat out using the trope for Complaining About Characters You Don't Like

Another 25/105 (24%) are situations where the fear is any kind of villain fear or justifiable fear for them

6/105 (5.7%) are misuse for Lovable Cowards

Another 6/105 (5.7%) are situations that only seem like a mild Cowardice Callout when it's describing mere selfish behavior or lacks real sincerity

12/105 (11.4%) are just situations where the villain/anti-hero is a Combat Pragmatist or tries to invoke Know When to Fold 'Em simultaneously

3/105 (2.9%) are zero/partial-context examples

Yet another 6/105 (5.7%) are various misuse

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Solution: The short and sweet way to go about this IMO is to make a clean-up thread, then add an Analysis page to the main (or vice versa). Real life examples obviously aren't allowed but people that are thought to be archetypal examples of the trope like Jack McCall could be there. If we really need to we can also expand the trope to include "televised" examples of the trope, ones that rely specifically on the coward having an M.O. like having someone Slain in Their Sleep, and getting the same circumstantial Karmic Death without ever having them state the M.O. outright, just conspiring to do more "regular" things like hit-and-run, social darwinism, etc. To that end, if they don't suffer a Karmic Death either it means they're forced into an M.O. out of fear or just aren't cowards unless the trope is parodied to the point that it's obvious, so we could cut any other examples.

Edited by Coachpill on Aug 15th 2023 at 11:26:57 AM

Silver and gold, silver and gold

You don't need TRS to start a cleanup thread (that's a free action) but since you brought up expanding the trope definition I'll open the thread.

Macron's notes

I'd rather instead restrict to correct use and rename, and move "cowardly tactics meet karma" to a new trope.

Edited by Amonimus on Aug 15th 2023 at 11:06:35 AM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Does the wick check even have any examples that fit the possible expansion option mentioned in the OP? Most of the categories for examples that aren't correct usage, but fit concepts that are tropeworthy, fit separate tropes we already have.

I kind of wonder if the option that's mentioned first in the OP, cleaning examples up and making an Analysis page, should be what's done here, but TRS isn't needed for that.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 15th 2023 at 2:57:47 PM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

Original YKTTW.

A cleanup would be good, like we did for Asshole Victim

(x3) my main priority but I feel like we should at least talk about the name of the trope. The expansion idea I had kind of reflected the Writer's Block conversation about this trope. Someone mentioned Tactical Withdrawal, which literally starts off with "Although this has been used as a euphemism for 'legging it', this is not quite the same thing. This is a managed retreat rather than an all-out rout, with forces withdrawing in good order to fight another day."

I think more specifically we should find a middle ground to Sore Loser. Dirty Coward was mentioned in the description of that but didn't really go beyond "if they lose they'll die", so I edited it to the current. Maybe something like Loan Churning Tail, where Tactical Withdrawal is done to Outscare the Enemy, but only after a bunch of mooks or whomever got locked in the enemy's dungeon and are confirmed to at least have enough food and water to survive for a small amount of time? I know at least a handful of the Pragmatic Villainy examples I listed (like the Tell Me Why one, where the "dungeon" is Fireweed). Dan Browned suffered from a similar problem where people were using it as an outlet to complain and ignoring the characters' actual motivations in favor of connecting things to what should be trivia/YMMV like The Scrappy, without ever actually waiting for recent examples to subside (which Dirty Coward might need if we do an Analysis page). Instead of just cutting those examples and being done with it I think we should at least discuss the possibility of a rename, though I don't have any great ideas right now beyond splitting certain examples into the above hypothetical trope.

Silver and gold, silver and gold

Uh, Writer's Block conversations should really not be used to determine how tropes should function. Many of those conversations take on a broader context beyond how the wiki itself defines these tropes, and you certainly should not have taken that discussion as a reason to make a unilateral change to the Sore Loser page. Especially not a Writer's Block discussion that's a decade old.

Other than that, I... really cannot parse what you're trying to say.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 15th 2023 at 2:18:56 PM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Me neither. I figure the definition is pretty clear; a Dirty Coward is a character who is portrayed by the story as a coward and in a negative light for such (as opposed to the Lovable Coward). Any examples that are just complaining can either be removed or, if the example is legitimate (the character in question is portrayed by the story as a slimy coward), rewritten in a neutral manner. I don't see why we need to add a qualifier that they must receive karma afterwards. It's actually why I was opposed to Cowardice Callout being a trope, as I don't see that as being separate enough; indeed, a character being called a coward is frequently the only way to tell that a character is objectively meant to be a Dirty Coward.

Edited by MasterN on Aug 15th 2023 at 11:56:47 AM

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.

I don't want to derail too much to discuss Cowardice Callout aside from the fact that it's just an Insult Trope and the focus is on the insult and the reaction, not on whether or not it's a Dirty Coward being addressed. But yes, a Dirty Coward will often be directly called out as such, or at least will be very clearly shown to be scared.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 15th 2023 at 3:33:56 PM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

If nothing needs to be done aside cleanup and there's no issue with the name, I suppose it may later get a clock and redirected to Long-Term like what was mentioned about Asshole Victim.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

I'm completely open to flipping the discussion to characterization and stalling efforts for this kind of criticism, but uh...oy vey.

1. I mentioned the conversation for the sake of comparison and some ideas I shared; it really doesn't go much deeper than that. Not sure how anyone could connect that to me editing the Sore Loser page, because I wasn't even thinking about the thread at all when I made that change. Do you think I just brought up Sore Loser for no reason?
2. re:Master N This is exactly what I'm talking about- the fact that Examples Are Not Arguable, yet people treat Dirty Coward like something that's up for debate. A random example would be Stan Uris from the original IT being described as a coward in this way:

Could be seen as one and different variations of that appear all over the site for this trope. It's not impossible for a Lovable Coward to be deconstructed as unhealthy just like it's not impossible for quasi-negative examples to be transplated into either that or the other trope I suggested: Loan Churning Tail, where there's no need for karma because it's a Tactical Withdrawal that's bitersweet (due to mook loss) and meant to win over the audience, or at least be brushed aside by the heroes. If we can't do that my point was to explain karma's role on the Analysis page, not using it as a qualifier, while using the description to outline how to consider exaggerated examples and distinguish between "they conspire to be as petty as possible, even if they're not villains" vs. "it's easy to tell that they're cowards for how over the top their actions are but the group they're part of doesn't immediately confront them". Something like adding Please note at the bottom of the main page while summarizing that tidbit as best as possible could go a long way. As of this point in time I think we should hook a crowner to see if we just need a clean-up thread or could do one/some of these other things, but we should prioritize the new trope and the clarifications if we all already agreed on cleanup and nobody wants a rename.

Edited by Coachpill on Aug 15th 2023 at 5:34:52 AM

Silver and gold, silver and gold

I read your post as saying that you took inspiration from the Writer's Block thread which gave you an idea of Dirty Coward that you then used as a reason to edit Sore Loser. If that's not the case I apologize but as I said I had serious trouble understanding your post.

We can't hook a crowner yet since there are no clear options on what we could do, and not even a clear consensus on what the full issue with Dirty Coward is, at least from what I can tell.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 15th 2023 at 5:36:12 AM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

The main issue that I can identify from the most recent response is frequent violation of Examples Are Not Arguable. In which case, no change is needed; just delete the “arguable” part, try to see if the character is portrayed in-story as a contemptible coward, and if unsure, delete the entry while linking to Examples Are Not Arguable as it is better to err on the side of caution.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.

"crowner to see if we just need a clean-up thread or could do one/some of these other things"

Would need arguments of what "other things" would help and if there aren't any the cleanup is just the default result.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Don't worry about it. Admittedly my response came across as kind of hostile so I apologize for saying "not sure how anyone could blah blah blah".

You're totally right about the fact that hooking a crowner isn't something that should be done immediately, but what I saying was I think we at least have enough resolve to brush a cleanup thread and keeping the current trope name off to the side for a little while, so it's easier to at least hook a crowner without considering the first two points, whenever that ends up happening.

Edited by Coachpill on Aug 15th 2023 at 5:49:12 AM

Silver and gold, silver and gold

Anyway, I didn't realize there were already some new responses so I'll wait for a bit.

Silver and gold, silver and gold

We usually reserve crowners for when there is disagreement as to how to handle a problem. If everyone decides on a cleanup thread, no crowner is needed. At least as far as I can remember.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.

If it just needs cleanup, then I second making a project thread.

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report

Vehicle-Based Characterization | Grief-Induced Split | Locker Mail

(x3) I'm on board with just sticking to a clean-up thread for Dirty Coward alone but I'm going to make a TLP draft at some point later this week for the other trope to see what people think. As for Analysis, should that still be added to the Main?

Edited by Coachpill on Aug 16th 2023 at 11:40:30 AM

Silver and gold, silver and gold

I think cleanup or a rename would help.