Drag Race cleanup

Pulling this together from numerous conversations elsewhere about RuPaul's Drag Race and the wider Drag Race franchise.

As of January 2024:

• The RuPaul's Drag Race series page covers both the original series and the franchise as a whole. A few spin-offs have their own pages, but most don't. This probably needs to be disentangled.
• The Characters pages for each season (which are Spoilers Off) contain non-character tropes and are written to chronicle a contestants full history and achievements in the series, not just characterisation.
• As per Administrivia, Characters pages must have a brief intro for each person listed - the Drag Race pages have none.
• There are some other Fan Myopia issues with terminology and cross-references between seasons and shows. Many pages may not be written in a way that makes sense for a casual reader.
• Not only is "Fishy" a term that suffers from Fan Myopia, it's a loaded and potentially offensive label that runs into ROCEJ (something which, in 2023, was actually called out within the show). Only use it if directly quoting someone — and explain it if using it. Examples should be written to acknowledge it, not to reinforce it as an acceptable term.
• We can trope contestants (and their drag personas) as characters in a semi-scripted narrative, but there are some No Real Life Examples, Please! tropes listed, which should not apply - e.g. The Ace has been removed from some contestants, and tropes like The Twink have been incorrectly listed purely because tropers consider some contestants attractive.
• Tropes like Elimination Houdini (normally YMMV) can be listed on the main pages with [[invoked]] tagging if we're talking about discussion within the show itself (e.g. if someone survives 3 lip syncs and is then referred to as a "lip sync assassin" on camera).
• Information from outside the work creeps into some examples, which again crosses into real life troping - at that point it's no longer reality tv, as we should only be troping what happens in the work.
• Breakout Character should only be used for a contestant who returns in a larger role within the Drag Race franchise for non-gameplay reasons (e.g. if they become a judge).
• Tropes like The Scrappy, Base-Breaking Character and Creator's Pet can only be used if they're acknowledged within ''Drag Race'' itself. In which case they're likely to belong on the Series page for the show mentioning them (with an [[invoked]] tag) as well as, or instead of, YMMV.
• There are recurring issues with misuse of certain tropes to fit Drag Race scenarios - e.g. Dance Battler (now largely cut) was widespread for lip sync scenarios.
• There are some translation and language questions for non-English language shows in the franchise. For the English-language wiki, should English (e.g. from official subtitles) take precedence on quotes etc? At the moment, they're mostly in the original languages with English relegated to notes.
• Pages are very casual about spoilers - including spoilers from other seasons or shows in the franchise, which arguably shouldn't even be on the Spoilers Off pages without warning (e.g. I may be comfortable with spoilers off on a Drag Race UK page, but that doesn't mean I'm expecting spoilers for Drag Race Thailand to be there as well).
• Judges and Pit Crew are troped as if they were characters - but they're not contestants, and this may cross a line into real life troping (especially for people who are not performers with a drag persona).

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To directly quote the Real Life Troping policy we have to follow (as of July 2023):

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"Tropers, start your engines..."

Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 7th 2024 at 1:32:49 PM

As a starting point: I'd suggest we cut the Pit Crew and (at a minimum) non-drag queen judges from Characters.Ru Pauls Drag Race.

Graham Norton as a Drag Race UK judge is just Graham Norton, for example. He's not "in character" any more than he is on Eurovision or his own chat show.

We wouldn't give him a Characters page entry for hosting The Graham Norton Show, because he's not a fictional character. The same rule should apply here - the exception for Reality TV contestants doesn't seem to cover judges in this way.

Valid tropes worth keeping can be moved to the series page.

Any concerns/views on this?

Edited by Mrph1 on Jun 23rd 2023 at 2:24:05 PM

id cut any individual tropes for the member of the pit crew, but keep the main entry for their character as a group. tropes like Walking Shirtless Scene and Living Prop seem to be ised correctly. Agree with largely cut the judges, theres only a handful of valid tropes there and could go on the main page probably

Edited by Tremmor19 on Jun 24th 2023 at 10:00:54 AM

Update from Image Pickin': consensus is that characters pages shouldn't use flags as a second image to indicate contestant nationality etc.

The Drag Race navbox is getting extremely large and complicated.

Any concerns if we move to one that lists the shows, rather than the individual seasons for every show?

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E.g. If you're on an All Stars page it should:

• List every All Stars season
• List the other shows, but not their seasons, linking to the main Character page for each show (e.g. Characters.Drag Race Espana), which then has the individual seasons?

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 21st 2023 at 11:08:24 AM

Just cut the judges' examples (includng Ru) from BaseBreakingCharacter.Ru Pauls Drag Race.

They're not characters or contestants, so we can't trope them that way.

Coming back to this familiar topic now I've got some spare time and brain:

We trope Reality TV contestants as if they were fictional characters on the basis that they "may act unnaturally" and/or the show is "using casting decisions and selective editing to create narratives that may not be true to real life".

But none of the the people troped on Characters.Ru Pauls Drag Race are Reality TV contestants. Instead, they're the hosts, assistants (Pit Crew) and regular judges. On that basis, I don't think the exception applies - these are real people and no more tropeable as fictional 'characters' than any other gameshow or chatshow host would be.

• Some have previously been contestants within the franchise before being promoted to host roles (e.g. Jiggly Caliente, Brooke Lynn Hytes), but that's troped elsewhere, with character sheets against the specific shows and seasons they competed in.
• Some of them aren't drag queens and don't have any sort of 'persona' or 'character' beyond what's expected of a TV personality, which is especially obvious when they also appear as themselves in other shows (Alan Carr, Michelle Visage, Graham Norton etc).
• Even if they are are drag queens (Ru Paul, Jiggly Caliente, Robert Fux etc.) they'll typically only be in drag at the end of each show (when judging), when making their debut at the very start of a season, or when sending video messages to contestants. Even when in drag, they are not really "in character" in the same way that contestants are. They might add some Large Ham elements or use cryptic messages (e.g. Robert Fux's videos with fairy tale rhymes) to hint at the next challenge, but that's true of other game shows as well.

(For Fred van Leer we do have an example noting that "he's a giggly, laugh a minute, but when in his drag character, he's easily the most blunt, commanding judge across the franchise" - but that's the only suggestion any of them are actively playing a part when in drag, and as crazysamaritan said on the RL troping thread: if there's a genuine question as to whether it's RL or in character, we should veer to the safe side and shouldn't trope it.

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On this basis, I propose that we cut all of the following:

• Hosts (drag queens): RuPaul, Art Arya, Pangina Heals, Brooke Lynn Hytes, Fred van Leer, Supremme de Luxe, Priscilla, Nicky Doll, Jiggly Caliente, Robert Fux
• Judges (not drag queens): Michelle Visage, Carson Kressley, Ross Matthews, Ts Madison, Santino Rice, Merle Ginsberg, Todrick Hall, Graham Norton, Alan Carr
• Pit Crew: Shawn Morales, Jason Carter, Simon Sherry-Wood, Miles Davis Moody, Bryce Eilenberg.

...and, yes, this would empty the page. So we'd probably need to reposition it as hub for the contestant 'character' pages instead.

Any salvageable tropes that aren't NRLEP can be moved to the Series page.

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So, in terms of next steps:

1. Is this sufficiently clear-cut in terms of policy that we should simply cut them all? (That feels like a mod question)
2. If not, does it just need a consensus on this thread?

Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 29th 2023 at 6:17:46 PM

People who aren't contestants or aren't working from a script/ being directed to act a certain way should probably not be troped. That's just my opinion though. Probably best to gather more opinions.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 29th 2023 at 1:20:15 PM

Macron's notes

If the contestants were actors we would,but since they're not but are still expected to behave in a certain way part of the show I think we should cut them

New theme music also a box

Posted to ATT to gather more opinions, as per MacronNotes' suggestion that more feedback's needed.

My two cents is that everyone who isn't part of the main cast that is feautred on screen each episode gets cut. To me that means Pit Crew and Guest Judges should definitely get cut.

But that said, I think mainstay judges and hosts should be allowed as they are part of the show's concept. Simon Cowell and Gordon Ramsay being a Caustic Critic / Harsh Talent Show Judge are part of their public personas and the role they played on the show that helped set the tone for the kind of show contestants would be on. These personas become more solidified as time goes on.

I think the problem is as it always is, tropers overly troping these people, including things that are not about the specific role and persona they portray on the show and just about the person themself.

That's my take on things.

Edited by amathieu13 on Jul 30th 2023 at 8:04:18 AM

So...

We've gone to ATT on this, and I've posted to some of the relevant RL threads, as per MacronNotes' guidance. But there hasn't been that much of a response, and what we have got isn't a robust consensus.

I think we have the support to cut the Pit Crew section - seems to be agreement that they are the show's assistants, not characters - but beyond that...

I still don't see how Graham Norton hosting The Graham Norton Show is acknowledged as a real person, but the same Graham Norton as host or judge on a reality show is suddenly tropeable as a fictional persona.

Bringing in a couple of older mod statements from other threads that seem relevant and may set a precedent.

crazysamaritan, from the RL troping thread.

From the same thread, Fighteer added this, re VTubers, and I'd argue the same applies to TV hosts and judges:

So... what now? Do we leave it all 'as is' in the absence of consensus, even if it seems to be questionable (at best) in terms of established rules on RL troping? Or should we proceed and cut at least some of these?

A holler was sent but I don't really have anything more to say. It looks like the broader topic of who can be troped in reality TV should be had on wiki talk (I think they're a thread for Reality TV there).

Macron's notes

I'm confused by that too. The contestants themselves are real people, not characters, but their drag personas are likely characters. The American show makes a large effort to only refer to contestants by their drag names, for instance. How unnaturally does a person have to act to count? And does that unnatural actions clause loop Ru Paul (whose hosting is partially scripted) back in?

On another note, I agree with the suggestion to shorten the navigation box for shows you aren't on.

Very late to the party - apologies.

My two pence as a long-time contributor to the Drag Race pages:

There’s a big difference between being in-character, and not in character on the show. The queens are all in-character all of the time and only use their drag names throughout. There’s a consistency in terms of ‘playing a part’.

I’d also count Ru, Fred, and the other lead judges as tropable, as they present in-character drag personas when judging that are often quite different to their out-of-drag personalities.

The Pit Crew are a little trickier - I think it’s ok to trope their ‘living prop’ type role, as that is an in-show trope — but no personal information, of course.

On non-drag judges like Michelle, who is essentially being herself for the most part, I’m less sure; do we trope reality show judges across the wiki? She’s not ‘in-character’ like the others are, and guest judges would be the same.

Hope that helps

Lex.

Looking at RuPaul's Drag Race UK Series 5:

• Straight Gay: Her fellow queens are all typically camp both in and out of drag, but Miss Naomi, in the Werk Room and in confessionals, doesn't particularly exhibit any queenly campiness, and is more of a laddish, cheeky chappy.

So, this is saying that Miss Naomi, in interviews and in the werk room, out of drag, isn't camp.

That's a No Real Life Examples, Please! trope. As it's being used for the contestant, not her drag persona, I think it falls foul of that rule and probably needs to be cut. Views?

Edited by Mrph1 on Oct 30th 2023 at 9:47:19 AM

Also, with apologies for the double post -

I've been putting Ru Pauls Drag Race UK together, and I think it's more or less ready to launch. Any feedback?

At the moment it's largely covered in the RuPaul's Drag Race page, as that's covered the whole tv franchise by default. But with five seasons of the UK show out, I think we've got more than enough content to justify a split.

I'm also very conscious that some of the tropes on the Characters pages are unlikely to count as characterisation - things that happened once, such as specific outfits, may not be within the character page guidelines. If we do need to move any, this gives us a home for them.

Edited by Mrph1 on Oct 30th 2023 at 11:18:24 AM

Hey Mrph 1 :)

Hope all is good! The UK page looks great, and I'm happy of course to help flesh it out.

Regarding Miss Naomi, she acts like that in drag too - it's her drag persona - a laddish, plain-speaking, but very sweet northerner, and Ru specifically praises her for it. So I think in this case it could count, as it's consistent across her entire performance on the show, and is notable compared to the other queens' personas. What do you think? Maybe we could reword the entry?

Lex.

Very late response.

I think it we have commentary on it within the work, we can rephrase and use it - as with The Twink and other such tropes. We just need to be sure that we're reporting other folks' views, not ainply sharing our own.

We'd also want to acknowledge whether it's used for the drag persona or both in and out of drag.

I think Drag Race Germany is almost ready to launch. Just need a decent image.

Drag Race Germany is now live and more or less complete for season one.

In the Reunion episode judge Barbie Breakout gives a speech directly to viewers, acknowledging the toxic (and sometimes racist, ageist etc.) elements of the wider Drag Race fandom and telling them to be better.

As it's in the work and it's clearly discussing the topic, I've added this as an "in-universe" (invoked) Hate Dumb entry - a comment on the "Is this an example?" thread queried whether it's closer to Dear Negative Reader, but I'm not sure it is.

Any feedback on this, and on the page in general, is welcome.

There's now a discussion about possible navbox redesign over on the navbox and floatbox cleanup thread. Please comment there if you have a view.

Putting this here in case we get queries from the discussion page:

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As part of the proposed navbox cleanup for Drag Racecharacter pages, we would need to create a page indexing all of the RuPaul's Drag Race season-specific pages.

This would then be used as the destination for Characters page navbox links from the other shows in the franchise, rather than listing all 16+ US seasons on every page for Drag Race Thailand or Drag Race España etc.

The proposal is that:

• RuPaul and the judges move over to Characters.Drag Race
• Characters.Ru Pauls Drag Race then becomes our list of season pages, a page solely for the original American series.

Any concerns about this?

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Specifically tagging ~lexii and ~DuPinz as they've been active on the pages and commented on the navbox aspect elsewhere.

Totally onboard with this approach, and if I can support with anything to help with the process, please let me know!