Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
The Moron
Okay, just put the Deadpool stuff in a tree. Why is this a question? They're two films that are in the same series, just put them together.
And I'm gonna be honest - Future, can you please stop with the tree questions for a bit? It seems like every time there's a candidate you're involved with, we have to have a multi-hour discussion about trees, even unrelated ones. I don't want to be rude but this goes back years and I don't know why this keeps happening. Can we please just group the Deadpool stuff and then drop it?
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on May 19th 2023 at 8:15:03 AM
I was in no way trying to insist things be a certain way. I was just simply asking about how the thread wanted to proceed about it.
I'm happy to leave it here at this point and move on, so that's that.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Mechakara's rewrite.
Right, a candidate for a dark spinoff of a Korean Cartoon.
What's the Work? Dooly the Little Dinosaur is an Korean Manwha about an baby tyrannosaurus 'Dooly' living in modern day seoul with his friends, a alien named 'douner' and a duck named 'Ddochi'
This particular book, known as 'a sad homage to dinosaur dooly' is an tragedy manga that talks about problems of human society.
Who is He / What did he do?
Douner is the Greater-Scope Villain of the episode "Dinosaur Dooly". An Alien from Outer space with an violin shaped technology he uses as an time machine.
After the gang grows up and Dooly heads to other side of south Korea to work as an factory worker, Douner convinces his caretaker 'Gil-dong' to join in a money-related chance after he retires, only for it to be revealed as scam, which would drive Gil-dong to illness and death. Which would turn the life for the remaining people on the household into a living hell. Heedong, the newphew of Gil-dong turned into an gangster who goes around beating people, Cheol-su and Dooly had to use their saving to free their adoptive sibling from prison, which would slowly drive Cheol-soo, Gil-dong's son (and the bigbad of this episode) into an violent person who wants to get rid of the gang in order to get money. This would also cause Ddochi to flee from the house in order to save her skin.
Eventually, Douner is captured by an scientist named 'Kang-Jae-Ho' after cheol-soo decided to get rid of him in order to get money in exchange of money to save his own life. Douner is taken to the government agency and killed for research.
freudian excuse / miigating factors
Absolutely not, he shows no remorse on the fact that he is responsible for the deaths and disasters in the household and hd completely enjoyed the fact that he caused the troubles for the characters, his friendship with Dooly is portrayed is an act of cowardice to save his own skin, not genuine friendship.
Heinous Standards?
While the 'Dinosaur Dooly' short has nasty people such as Hededong being and gangster and Cheol-soo being an abuser, it should be known that Douner is the one that turned them into what they are, not to mention that he is the only character to cause someone else's deaths besides his own, and unlike Kang Jae-ho, who is portrayed neutral role in the series, Douner is portrayed as completely evil.
Final Verdict?
Yes.
Edited by PlatinumOni on May 20th 2023 at 12:33:01 PM
An Eldritch Troper
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Wrong place to put an effort post. Please go here.
I'd prefer that the individual films in MCU be listed by release date, without the use of trees. Seeing the GOTG tree makes this section look unwieldy. Same goes for the X-Men examples at Marvel Films.
Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
Then we split up the Thor and Captain America trees too? I'm alright with that. I'm alright with whatever.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I say keep the trees myself.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Okay, so a discussion for Smash Ganondorf was brought up on the other thread, about how his story arc ends with him helping save the world out of pragmatism but he makes no attempts to betray the heroes.
I say keep Ganondorf though, since if he's only helping them out of pragmatism I don't think it's redeeming that he doesn't betray the good guys, Chronic Backstabbing Disorder isn't a requirement and Pragmatic Villainy isn't either
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Goku Black
Isn't this a game with zero dialogue though ?
Why are we assuming that?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lucas the Dreamer
I think the game’s lack of dialogue makes things just a little too vague on if Ganondorf helping the heroes save the world without betraying them and just ending there with him saving the world counts as pure Pragmatic Villainy or a Heel–Face Turn. Ganondorf also has Chronic Backstabbing Disorder prior so it’s within character for him to betray the heroes.
Edited by TheLivingDrawing on May 20th 2023 at 3:44:39 PM
Why waste time when you can see the last sunset last?
Yeah that's tough imo, it does feel rather like assuming it's a pragmatic move with a very minimalist story telling and if it's ambiguous I think I'd lean on keeping him off, at least unless the line gets continued and we get some clarification.
Barb / Temporary Kylo
So how does this play out exaclty? Is it just 'This guy is gonna kill everyone' and all Ganon does is help with trying to stop that? Or are there scenes that could imply some maybe comrade and they just don't speak to clarify whether it is or not.
The First man
Lucas the Dreamer
With other Evil Versus Oblivion CMs it’s usually unambiguous pragmatism. For example Mohg uses his Omen form to guard the way to the Three Fingers, who wish to burn all of creation to ash. It’s very obvious that Mohg is only doing so because he wants the Lands Between intact for him to rule. With Ganondorf the lack of dialogue and his story ending with him having saved the world with no hint as to his actions afterwards make things too vague to tell.
Edited by TheLivingDrawing on May 20th 2023 at 3:50:42 PM
Why waste time when you can see the last sunset last?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hate to sidetrack, but since Overlord Jr. got a rewrite, his father's writeup also looks a bit janky:
- Darken Rahl, the Big Bad of season 1 and The Dragon to The Keeper in season 2, orders a mass infanticide, kills any he deems a threat, and tortures innocent peasants to keep his dark power. Rahl is also especially fond of blood sacrifices, using the blood as ink to pen notices and spells. Rahl also unleashes a plague on his own people in an attempt to blame Richard and cause the people to turn against him. Throughout the series, Rahl is shown as nothing more than pure, unadulterated evil.
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Does his involvement end with 'Stop the thing that will kill everything?' though? We have cases like Black Manta from the DC animated movie-verse. Who was shown helping with trying to stop Darkseid from what I recall, and he does not speak there. But sense it's just going against the guy who is a threat to everyone there is no reason to assume it's altruistic.
Is it just helping against the thing that's gonna kill everyone. Or are there other scenes that imply it could be something more and such?
The First man
The problem is that the Subspace Emissary ends right after Tabuu is defeated, without any denouement. Ganondorf's last scene is him implicitly agreeing to team up with the others and then him clenching his fist as darkness pours from it.
RIP Toriyama
Yeah, refreshing on it I figured there was a reason I was iffy on Brawl!Ganon from my time playing it, I have to say No to him. There's a few issues I have to address.
- He seems genuinely loyal to Master Hand, prostrating himself before Hand multiple times. When he realizes Master Hand is being controlled by Tabuu, he seems actually pissed and attacks Tabuu without provocation. The effortpost claimed he "fully intended on betraying him", but nothing in the story truly suggests this and I'd like citations showing where he supposedly intended betrayal.
- When he's awakened from his trophy form by Zelda and Link, he pretty much immediately follows them to fight Tabuu, and in the end is seen standing alongside the rest of the heroes in a heroic trophy pose after Tabuu's defeat.
- Lastly, it is worth noting that the number of R.O.B.s is being extrapolated a bit, there's at most like 50 shown onscreen. Which is still bad, but not the "hundreds" it was made out to be.
The fact that there's no dialogue really makes the first two points stand out. There's zero proof he's operating solely out of Pragmatic Villainy or is planning to betray Master Hand in the story itself, any attempt at diving further into his motived is taking it into Alternative Character Interpretation and ain't gonna fly. I'm a pretty solid No, I think there's too many ambiguous issues.
Edited by Ravok on May 20th 2023 at 1:07:09 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Woagh
Yeah, if there's literally no proof he was even The Starscream than i'm a no.
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Yeah with the clarifications I think I'll lean nay on him for now unless we get more later.
The First manIf him being a Starscream is just speculation I'm switching no to Ganon
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Not the Eye
Yeah, switch no to Ganon.
Goku Black
Cut Ganon
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Cut Ganon if those are the cases.
Cut Ganon.
I noticed that the current entry for Uprising!Nicky Cavella is a bit.... lacking, so I decided to propose an expanded version.
Here is the current entry:
- Uprising (link): Nicky Cavella is a crime boss who kidnaps women and children to be raped and tortured to death before stuffing their bodies with drugs to sell on the Black Market. Cavella threatens his men to do his work or their families will die if they fail to obey.
And here is my version:
- Uprising (link): Nicky Cavella is a crime boss who has put the city of New York in a state of peril. A vile sex trafficker and rapist, Cavella is first introduced telling a kidnapped woman that her kids were "a beautiful asset to the brothel" before forcing said woman to be part of the brothel. Cavella also has various women and girls kidnapped, tortured and murdered in order to stuff their bodies with drugs and ship them off to the Black Market, even forcing Sarah to watch as her daughter Leah is tortured and killed. Also a Bad Boss, Cavella threatens the families of his minions if they fail him.
I don't really think we would need to make a tree for the first class stuff. They are main instalments of the who thing while the Deadpool stuff is a spin off series that is the same series so it makes sense to give them a tree. Again it is just simpler to give the Deadpool stuff a tree.
Edited by Bullman on May 19th 2023 at 7:59:42 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread