To-do list:
- Move examples of Tier Induced Scrappy between either Low-Tier Letdown (for low-tier examples) and High-Tier Scrappy (for high-tier examples) if they fit. note that being hated by players is a required part of the definition; examples that do not mention that aspect are ZCEs and/or misuse.
Final count:
- Correct (Disliked By the Community): 4
- Incorrect (Not Disliked By the Community or No Mention of Scrappy-related Qualities): 38
- Incorrect (Wrong Placements AND No Scrappy-dom): 5
- Ambiguous (Unknown if Scrappy-dom is Accurate): 3
Wicks: 50/50
So I think there's largely two ways we can go about this, from what I understand upon looking at likewise posts:
- Scrap all the entries that aren't Tier-Induced Scrappies and remodel the trope into something indictive of its name.
- Split the trope between there being a trope for meta ranking versus actual Scrappy-dom.
I'm in favor of Option 1, personally, because TV Tropes is all about fandom as a wholesale. Meta shouldn't hold an influence outside of a Just For Fun sort of thing if it doesn't impact the fandom itself. That's at least what I think. All I think doing a split will do will merely make it more counter-intuitive and cause trope bloat for the other option, and may not even uniquely solve the problem that was there to begin with.
Wick check:
Tier-Induced Scrappies are, by definition, characters of overwhelming strength or overwhelming weakness that are disliked within the game precisely because of that. By its nature that isn't inherently a bad thing, but the problem is that it often completely foregoes its own definition:"Two variations of The Scrappy specific to Video Games and/or Tabletop Games.
The first, often seen in fighting games, concerns the best characters getting hated not out of a hatedom but for being overused and/or downright difficult to defeat due to their high power, gameplay-wise; understandably, those two points get on a lot of people's nerves and tend to be favored by other people. Characters who are Difficult, but Awesome tend to avoid this fate because they are hard to play well, but disproportionately powerful examples can still earn this status. A typical Tier Induced Scrappy is a high tier character with next to no learning curve, though high learning curve characters who are unreasonably difficult to beat when played by a master (especially if they also happen to be extremely frustrating to play against and/or boring to watch) can and will earn this status. Stone Wall characters are the most common candidates for this trope (especially heavy zoners), though touch-of-death rushdown characters (particularly ones with good approach options) also tend to earn the playerbase's hatred. Characters with massive weaknesses who are strong in spite of those weaknesses are also common targets just based off of principle; people hate unbalanced characters, and these characters are often powerful when they shouldn't be. See also Too Qualified to Apply. In other genres than fighting games, such as MOBA or Hero Shooter, these high-tiers can also be hated for being extremely difficult to deal with (if you're the enemy) or making the game centered around them and them alone (thus making you feel pointless if they're on your team). And for single-player games, they can be hated for being so powerful that they remove all challenge from the game.
The other, more common to RPGs, is a character who is widely hated because they just suck in gameplay terms. They might be the nicest person in the world, but if they're The Load in combat or gameplay, their fate is decided. A Low Tier Induced Scrappy has no Magikarp Power; they're bad from the start and they never get to a point where they become worth the trouble or able to hold their own, no matter how much you invest into them, especially when there's other, more rewarding characters on hand. In fighting games and MOBAs, they are frequently Skill Gate Characters who are easy to pick up and do well with and are dominant in lower-level play, but do exceptionally poorly in higher-level play; the Scrappy part often comes from bad players who insist on using them with the same suboptimal strategies and builds and refuse to get better, get destroyed by competent players, and proceed to ragequit, lagswitch (if possible), abuse report functions, send abusive private messages, rage on message boards demanding nerfs, and generally act like incorrigible Scrubs."
The problem that comes from this is how it's rarely often the character themselves aren't hated for being high-tier or low-tier, but are listed in spite of such. Seriously, I've done a wick check, and these were my results:
Wicks Checked: 50/50
- The Wolfguard (Roshea, Vyland, Sedgar and Wolf) from Fire Emblem: New Mystery of the Emblem: They go into detail of why they're disliked so much as units in FE12 while also pointing out they lack the character appeal to truly be saved as a wholesale (because the Archanea games are very characterization-light compared to other installments; even given Wolf and Sedgar were extremely useful in FE11, they don't stand out nearly as much as characters or individuals to really be seen as anything but a malignant tumor that comes with prepromotes in FE12 being so hideously badly-designed).
- Nash from Street Fighter V: Actual documentation given of with the users of Nash considering him cheap, and being very unfun to fight against.
- Bayonetta from Smash Bros.: Actual documentation given and it being historical how reviled she was in Smash 4, and how much a lot of that stigma hasn't just up and vanished even with Ultimate.
- Conjurer from Bravely Default: The Conjurer class lacks the character appeal or mechanics to save it, so it qualifies.
- Juno from Fire Emblem: The Binding Blade: Zero mention of actual Scrappy-dom, placement focuses solely on mechanical lackluster nature.
- Amelia from Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones: Especially damning, given it notes her as an Ensemble Dark Horse than focus on anything regarding Scrappy-dom.
- Lorenz from Fire Emblem: Three Houses: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Regular Jakob: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom.
- Guinevere: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom.
- The Five Greatwyrms from Dragalia Lost: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom.
- Maribelle from Dragalia Lost: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom.
- Sigurd from Fate/Grand Order: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom. Especially damning, given it notes him as an Ensemble Dark Horse than focus on anything regarding Scrappy-dom.
- Mightyena from Pokémon: Especially damning, given it notes it as an Ensemble Dark Horse than focus on anything regarding Scrappy-dom.
- Volcarona from Pokémon: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom. Even worse, Volcarona I can confirm is a very popular Pokémon in general, so...
- Cielo from Shin Megami Tensei: Digital Devil Saga: While Cielo is explained why they're weak, it's highly subjective and far from general agreement, as Cielo is an extremely popular character among MegaTen fans. Plus, he does have massive use especially versus the Superboss, and even then is far from useless. Can personally attest against him being disliked.
- Gotenks from Dragon Ball Fighter Z: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom.
- Archfey Warlock from Dungeons & Dragons: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom.
- Revenant from Apex Legends: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom, aside from "falling to the bottom of the Scrappy heap". Cannot confirm as somebody who doesn't play Apex Legends if it's accurate, but I'm doubtful.
- Caustic from Apex Legends: Absolutely zero mention of Scrappy-dom and is a Base-Breaking Character, so even worse.
- Lt. Morales from Heroes of the Storm: No mention of Scrappy-dom, or that it's been on "both" ends, confusingly enough.
- Lyndis from Fire Emblem: The Blazing Blade: Especially damning, given it notes her as an Ensemble Dark Horse than focus on anything regarding Scrappy-dom.
- Reaper from Overwatch: Folder gives nothing about actual Scrappy-dom, and is too jumbled overall.
- The Laid-back personality: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom outside of vague subjectivities and unknowns.
- Red and White from Magic: The Gathering: Nevermind Boros being a very popular combination color-wise, it's only focusing on the fact that it sucks in Commander. That's it.
- Rachel Alucard from BlazBlue: Continuum Shift: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom.
- The Onion Knight from Dissidia: Final Fantasy: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom.
- Dan Hibiki from Street Fighter: Again, no mention or allusion of Scrappy-dom outside of some extremely vague language, or discernible proof of such.
- Dragoons from Final Fantasy XI: A very popular class, so no mention of Scrappy-dom.
- Diddy Kong from Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Patrick from SpongeBob SquarePants: Battle for Bikini Bottom: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Mouse-Man from Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak. Also, dafuq?
- Dwarves from Total War: Warhammer: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak. Dwarves are popular as hell too in Warhammer, dafuq?
- Robo from Chrono Trigger: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Sten from Dragon Age: Origins: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Vincent from Final Fantasy VII: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak. And he's an Ensemble Dark Horse, so dafuq?
- Xigbar from Kingdom Hearts 365 1/2 Days: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak. And he's an Ensemble Dark Horse, so dafuq?
- Kaiden Alenko from Mass Effect: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Yusuke from Persona 5: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Hope from Xenoblade Chronicles X: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak, and she's a well-liked character in spite of it.
- The Twins from Dead by Daylight: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Fighter and Monk in Pathfinder: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak.
- Takeda Clan from Total War: Shogun 2: Again, no mention of actually being hated for being weak, and they're popular.
- Alchemist from Dota 2: Again, no mentions of Scrappy-dom, and it's outside of it's main file.
- Tyrael from Heroes of the Storm: Again, no mentions of Scrappy-dom, and it's outside of it's main file.
- Kind and Laid-back Personality from Miitopia: Again, no mentions of Scrappy-dom, and it's outside of it's main file.
- The Nightmare from Dead by Daylight: Again, no mentions of Scrappy-dom, and it's outside of it's main file.
- The Monk in Dungeons and Dragons 3.5e: Again, no mentions of Scrappy-dom, and it's outside of it's main file.
- Nuubee from J Stars Victory VS: Unknown if reasons listed for being disliked are legitimate. May need confirmation.
- Lian from Paladins: Seems to be legit, but otherwise seems to focus on how OP their auto-aim abilities are.
- The Boss Characters from 100% Orange Juice: Seems legit, but needs confirmation from the fandom.
Final count:
- Correct (Disliked By the Community): 4
- Incorrect (Not Disliked By the Community or No Mention of Scrappy-related Qualities): 38
- Incorrect (Wrong Placements AND No Scrappy-dom): 5
- Ambiguous (Unknown if Scrappy-dom is Accurate): 3
Wicks: 50/50
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 23rd 2023 at 9:26:14 AM
the Retromancer
I was kind afraid this would turn most examples into ZCE, but a quick glance already shows "least useful form", "least useful character", "unfairly powerful", "get some hate for being functionally indestructible under a particular set of circumstances", so it's not as much of work needed as I've thought.
Also the "Both" category examples literally just have two or more of other categories, making the Tier-sorting meaningless.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
The Unknown
Surprised the split option isn't doing better. I thought it had more support.
Oh well, I'm not so married to the idea that I believe the other option isn't viable.
Edited by Karxrida on Jun 3rd 2022 at 12:20:27 PM
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
Changed my votes after deciding the separate tropes option could work and function as separate tropes.
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
Professor Gigachad
The Pokemon page for this trope is so huge to the point I had to split it up into two subpages so those would probably go on each of these tropes. The problem I am wondering for this is what would we go on the instance of the "Both" characters.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Depending on how we define the split, the "both" situation may actually disappear entirely. If we go with something like Karxrida suggests
, i.e. "splitting into "high tier character/class that is hated due to being too good" and "character/class that everyone knows sucks and suggests never using"." Then I don't think you could have characters being both.
Edited by amathieu13 on Jun 4th 2022 at 9:06:50 AM
Professor Gigachad
The thing is though that in a case like Pokémon, for instance, things are very complex. Metagames change often and a Pokémon that is overpowered in one might not be in another. Doing that would be very overly narrow and lose us a lot of good entries.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
If the meta is constantly changing and some characters only fit one of the two (proposed) split tropes under some metas, you make that explicit in the example. For example, if say charizard was super strong to the point of being unfun to play against in one meta that stretched from 2004-2006 and then was hard nerfed into being virtually unplayable, you can still give a charizard example for both of the tropes so long as you specify the meta and/or the time frame the two tropes apply.
But also I'm using Karxrida's proposal just as an example. Calamity Raven suggested a different split[1] that would allow for grouping, I think, under the same trope for characters that may bounce back and forth
Edited by amathieu13 on Jun 4th 2022 at 11:18:07 AM
the Retromancer
If it's unstable maybe it's just not a Scrappy example and should go to Metagame. Or be own Tier.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
It's been 3 days. Should we call?
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Calling in favor of splitting high-tier and low-tier examples into separate tropes. We'll need a list of potential names for both tropes, and I was thinking of tackling the name of the low-tier trope first since I feel like if we reuse the name Tier Induced Scrappy for one of the two new tropes, the low-tier one would be a better fit for it.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 6th 2022 at 11:15:01 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
the Retromancer
Low-Tier Scrappy is an obvious one, but maybe something Critically Underpowered Fighter or Worthless Selectable Character or along the lines. This may need a day or two.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Professor Gigachad
Since its been called I would be willing to help change the Pokemon page since I know the series very well.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
How sweet it is
I'm good with Low-Tier Scrappy, though I'll pitch Low-Tier Letdown as another option.
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
The Unknown
I alluded to his before, but I would prefer to avoid having "Scrappy" in the low-tier version's title. Low-Tier Letdown is a decent name.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
For the high-tier version, Boring Invincible Character? Overpowered And Unenjoyable? Top Tier Trash?
Edited by Orbiting on Jun 6th 2022 at 6:43:45 AM
The Unknown
The current name or Metagame Scrappy would be my choices.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Hooked a crowner for the low-tier page. I took Orbiting's suggestions for the high-tier page and replaced words like "high-tier" and "overpowered" with words like "low-tier" and "underpowered" because I felt that snowclones on Orbiting's suggestions could work for the low-tier page.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 7th 2022 at 4:22:01 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
The Unknown
I want to clarify that the suggestions in my previous post were meant for the high-tier version and shouldn't have been included on the low-tier crowner.
They're being downvoted anyway, but still.
Edited by Karxrida on Jun 7th 2022 at 3:07:58 AM
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I removed it. The only vote was from me, so it shouldn't be a big deal.
For high tier, how is/would it be different from Game-Breaker? If it's disliked for being OP yet oft used for it's effectiveness that sounds like the real life hypocrisy that got other tropes cut. If disliked because they're forced to use them to be competitive, that's Player-Preferred Pattern + complaining.
Thoughts:
- Rename "Tier-Induced Fan Ban" to when fandoms impose restrictions on using the OP for such. It would make it uncontroversially objective while still being an audience reaction and separating it from Player-Preferred Pattern.
- Have Game-Breaker only apply to single player as it breaks the gameplay "narrative" by making it easier than intended, which doesn't apply to multiplayer which is where things work differently.
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jun 7th 2022 at 8:11:47 AM
the Retromancer
Game-Breaker probably needs a deep look since it's just too subjective, but in own thread.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Game-Breaker is already YMMV and its description already says it often overlaps with Tier Induced Scrappy, but yes, doing anything with it would require a separate thread.
But anyway, I guess overlap depends on whether players think a Game-Breaker's function improves the experience or makes it less fun.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 7th 2022 at 10:32:59 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
A Game-Breaker is not always hated. One example that comes to mind is Marvel vs. Capcom 2, where only one of the "Four Gods" (the most overpowered characters in the game) is listed as a Tier Induced Scrappy. Magneto, Storm, and Sentinel are well-liked because although they're way above most of the cast, their gameplay is very deep and complex, making them Difficult, but Awesome in high-level play (or at least that's how someone explained it to me, I'm not good enough at fighting games to tell how accurate this is).
Anyway, I think that the new name should not use "character" or "fighter" in the title, because some games have you choose something other than characters, and some games aren't about fighting. A low-tier car in a racing game, for example, is neither a character nor a fighter.
The Unknown
High-tiers are not necessarily Game Breakers. Sometimes they're just really common and people are sick of them. A Yu-Gi-Oh example comes to mind where the same 4 decks were the meta for a year's worth of formats (a long time when multiple banlists drop a year), and people were super done with them. The banlist that murdered their reigns all at once was met with much rejoicing.
Game Breakers also show up in singleplayer games and can be fondly remembered depending on the context.
Edited by Karxrida on Jun 7th 2022 at 11:06:06 AM
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
Crown Description:
Consensus was to split the low-tier and high-tier examples of Tier Induced Scrappy into separate tropes. What should the trope for high-tier examples be called?
Oh! Okay that makes sense. Thank you!
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