Inanimate Objects and Locations in Character Pages

Similar to settings, what do you think inanimate objects treated as characters by the narrative, like Wilson from Cast Away?

If the narrative treats them as a character, they're a character.

So I learned recently that the Inanimate Objects page on the MCU got cut because they supposedly aren't examples.

While I disagree with that decision and the reasoning for it, if they were deleted specifically because they have a lack of personality, wouldn't troping various heroes' weapons and suits on their character page (i.e: Steve Rogers, Tony Stark, Peter Parker, Thor Odinson, James Rhodes) be disallowed?

While I think a character's iconic weapons & equipment and some tropes about how a character uses them is valid to be in characters page, I'm against this kind of folder since they attract work tropes about the object.

For example, on Captain America's page: The Attack Reflector entry on his shield folder is appropriate for Steve, since it's a move associated with his character that he does in combination with his iconic shield. Same thing with others like Deadly Disc, Precision-Guided Boomerang, Required Secondary Powers, or Throwing Your Shield Always Works.

But entries like the Children Are Innocent and Ambiguous Situation feel like they belong on the work page they originated from since they're single occurrences that aren't really associated with Steve.

My first reaction is that the folder should be removed and the tropes either moved to Steve's folder or to the appropriate work page.

...However, I admit the Iron-Man armor section is so big and dependent on its current organization method that I'm kind of stumped on what to do with it.

If 2.0 ever comes around I would love to see an icon for character tropes the same way we have trivia and YMMV icons. A girl can dream... But until then.

So first, I agree the weapons and suits should not have their own folder or soft splits. I think the first step here would be to clean the pages of non-characterization tropes. Tropes like Attack Reflector and Throwing Your Shield Always Works should be moved to the main franchise page because those are not characterizing Captain America, they are describing things he does. To pull from Tony Stark's page as well, Amusing Injuries, Foreshadowing, Early-Installment Weirdness, Shoot the Hostage Taker, those are just a few of the tropes that can be immediately pulled and moved for not being character tropes. Once that initial hurdle is cleared, then we can go about reorganizing the pages. But this is a massive project that would need a dedicated cleanup thread.

1) The difference between character tropes and YMMV/Trivia is that YMMV/Trivia are never supposed to be listed as examples on a main work page, while character tropes can in the absence of a character sheet.

2) Unfortunately classifying tropes into "character trope"/"not a character trope" is not that simple, as this thread is a testament to.

Character pages are a good example of how the shape of an index affects the reality of things being sorted into it. The function of character pages was just to be overflow for long works pages. It'd be really elegant and convenient if every trope could be easily classified by what type of page it should go on, so there's pressure to try to actually do that, even though artists use plot tropes as characterisation, or apply a character trait across an entire setting, or whatever they like.

It's similar to how trying to draw a sharp line between tropes and audience reactions leaves Intended Audience Reactions in an ambiguous interstitial zone, and results in doubled-up pages (like Hate Sink and The Scrappy, or Uncanny Valley and Unintentional Uncanny Valley) separating a single topic between two perspectives, and confusion over Ascended Fanboy or collaborative fiction when the artist reacts to the audience instead of the 'normal' way around.

Edited by Noaqiyeum on Feb 17th 2023 at 2:58:48 PM

It's clearly a question that needs some further discussion and resolution. Yes, inanimate objects can't have characterization because they're inanimate, but in cases like Mjolnir or Iron Man's various armors they're integral to the story so how is it best to address this?

e: nvm

Edited by Amonimus on Feb 18th 2023 at 9:26:57 PM

I mean, the hammer and ax are given characterization. They have a degree of sentience and personality. Thor's weapons fall under the banner of "sentient object" which were already agreed to be valid for a character's page.

Eh, I dunno about that. A big axe awkwardly standing near a person and not saying anything doesn't really indicate that it's alive or have thoughts.

By that logic, we should restore the character page for the Tesseract, since it was "sentient" enough to send the Red Skull into space instead of allowing him to use its power.

Edited by MatthewWayne on Feb 18th 2023 at 11:24:22 AM

In the MCU, Doctor Strange's cape might qualify, but I'm not so sure about Thor's weapons. Likewise, you can trope one of Tony Stark's AI's (MCU or comics) as a character, but unless it's specifically tied to a single object or suit of Iron Man armor as a 'body', I don’t think the object/suit gets troped as a character.

(Going back a few posts, Doctor Who's TARDIS absolutely does qualify - she's possessed a body and spoken before, with dialogue making it very clear that even when she doesn't do that, she's sentient)

Stormbreaker was given enough characterization to be seen as a jealous, clingy lover who kept catching their boyfriend pining over their ex. That's not an exaggeration, it's quite literally the joke of the scene and the fact that the ax was given enough sentience for this joke to even work means that it does have some degree of character. Certainly more than, say, Tony's armor or Clint's bow.

I mean, I'm firmly against troping objects and locations as characters unless they have some sort of characterization applied to them. I simply believe that Stormbreaker and Mjolnir do.

Edited by WarJay77 on Feb 18th 2023 at 3:43:41 PM

I do agree with the Cloak of Levitation being a sentient being. I overlooked him, but it definitely has a mind of its own to some extent. Tony's armors aren't really sentient because J.A.R.V.I.S and F.R.I.D.A.Y exist outside of them though.

If Stormbreaker and Mjolnir have characterizing tropes, then I suppose that means we should also trope the Tesseract and the Mind Stone, since it's established that they're also sentient. As I mentioned before, the Tesseract was responsible for banishing the Red Skull to Vormir, and Vision explicitly mentions in Avengers: Infinity War that the Mind Stone speaks to him, and is warning him about Thanos.

Look, I'm not arguing over whether they're sentient, because that doesn't matter. Do they have characterization? As in, are they implied to have personalities and motives the like the way Thor's weapons are? Just "being alive" doesn't make something a character.

Edited by WarJay77 on Feb 18th 2023 at 4:03:36 AM

If we're going with this logic, then Stormbreaker and Mjolnir cannot have their own folders. Because again, Thor's weapons don't have what I would call "characterization".

Mjolnir has about as much sentience as a 90s computer program that you punch commands into to get it to do what you want. That's not a character, that's a glorified MacGuffin at best.

And Stormbreaker just hovering over Thor doesn't mean its sentient. Thor may be treating it like it's sentient, but it never does anything else of its own volition like the Cloak of Levatation does. The only time its abilities are used are when a person (i.e Thor or Gorr) are wielding it.

My logic is about whether or not the narrative frames the item as a character, not about whether or not the item actually is sentient. That's the point. If it's on a character page, it must have character tropes you can apply to it, and you can apply character tropes to Thor's weapons based on how they're portrayed, even if they're not literally sentient.

No, it's not a ton of characterization, but it is there. And I wouldn't advocate for their own folders because neither of them have enough content to warrant it, but that doesn't mean that they have to be entirely excommunicated from the character pages in the same way as any other non-sentient weapon or tech.

Look, this is the reason why Wilson the volleyball from Castaway is being discussed further up on this page. Wilson isn't alive, but the narrative treats it as a character, so it's allowed to have character tropes.

Edited by WarJay77 on Feb 18th 2023 at 4:45:58 AM

Okay, so...in that case, the Tesseract and the Mind Stone have plenty of reasons for being framed as characters. Not only are they actually sentient, but if we can stretch the definition to fit weapons as they are "portrayed" per your viewpoint, then we can definitely do it for artifacts of great power and how it reacts to characters using them.

The Tesseract has morality as to who or what can use it, which is why he sent a German fascist to space out of disgust for him, and made the decision to bring Loki to Earth in The Avengers.

Meanwhile, the Mind Stone showed Wanda Maximoff her future as the Scarlet Witch within Loki's Scepter, actively communicated with Vision, and warned him of Thanos's presence.

Hell, I could go further. The Soul Stone is the one who cursed the Red Skull and only chooses to appear after a sacrifice is made. The Darkhold actively corrupts people's minds with its words and sends Souls of the Damned to attack those who misuse it in ways it dislikes.

If we go by what you're suggesting, they should be treated as characters, right?

I mean, I guess so. I only feel strongly about Mjolnir and Stormbreaker (especially Stormbreaker) because Love and Thunder is so fresh in my mind, but if you believe that there are character tropes you could apply to the Tesseract and Mind Stone there's an argument to be made for them.

Actually...

I know the page has since been cut, but do you think we could make a sandbox for the deleted Inanimate Objects section in the MCU? I'd like to be able to look at what used to be on it to see what could be considered a character or not.

I think the Mods should be able to pull up the history, yeah.

Here you go: Sandbox.MCU Inanimate Objects

Thank you. Appreciate this greatly.

On a related note, I’m not sure if all the links pointing to MCU Inanimate Objects were corrected. That might wand to be checked up on.

Edited by GateStarX on Feb 19th 2023 at 1:27:03 AM