Unclear Description: Enthralling Siren

Not all sirens are depicted as mermaids in media. Sometimes, they are depicted looking just like human women (in fact, the current page image for Enthralling Siren depicts them as such), and sometimes, they are depicted as creatures with the body of a bird and the head of a woman, and the list can go on for a very long time.

It won't be just Sirens Are Mermaids, but more specific. If anything, Sirens Are Mermaids would be a sub-trope, or sister trope where the creatures described end up being mythological Composite Characters inheriting the traits of sirens in behavior, mermaids in physical appearance, referred as either interchangeably.

Vi: Well, it's not like we're getting attacked by a giant wasp spider guardian! | Leif: Never combine those words ever again.

Agreed there are different depictions, which is why it can work. It's probably good as long as it stays a subtrope/sister trope.

Edited by Piterpicher on Jul 24th 2021 at 11:11:24 AM

Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)

Does this mean we have 7 votes in favor of renaming this trope so far?

Wouldn't Sirens Are Mermaids be a subtrope of Our Mermaids Are Different in addition to being a subtrope of Our Sirens Are Different (or whatever we call it)?

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 25th 2021 at 7:54:45 AM

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- That sounds sensible, yes?

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576

Why, yes, of course, it would be.

Vi: Well, it's not like we're getting attacked by a giant wasp spider guardian! | Leif: Never combine those words ever again.

More than 3 days have passed, and many tropers agreed on making Our Sirens Are Different a trope. What now?

You can take it to TLP yourself if you feel like it, or add it to the Trope Idea Salvage Yard if you don't.

Umm, I mean, Enthralling Siren in itself already has perfect description of Our Sirens Are Different concept. I think it would be easier to rename the Enthralling Siren page to Our Sirens Are Different, and then clean wicks from misuse. If a trope can be made from the wicks that won't fit modern definition, we can sandbox them and move to more fitting pages.

EDIT: Typo in "rename".

EDIT 2: Expanded the fix suggestion.

Edited by I--Vanya--I on Jul 28th 2021 at 11:58:50 AM

Vi: Well, it's not like we're getting attacked by a giant wasp spider guardian! | Leif: Never combine those words ever again.

Woah, this sank down. Let's fish it back up so we can continue the discussion. If we want the "Our Sirens Are Different" ship to sail, we need a crowner or something, right? Or do we just call consensus and dive in? This thread made a splash when it started, but then everything just sort of dried up.

...Okay, that's enough water puns for the day.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 15th 2021 at 4:54:37 AM

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But I liked these puns.

Only Piterpicher is neutral on the "making Our Sirens Are Different a trope" idea, but they didn't propose any other action. Vanya is right; We just need to rename this page & dewick.

I'm late to the party, but I have to disagree with selkies' assessment that

The various tropes mentioned (Compelling Voice, Mind-Control Music etc.) do not adequately cover the Sirens.

• Compelling Voice is when you are supernaturally compelled to do what the person with the voice orders you to do. But the sirens of mythology do not give you orders; rather they sing so beautifully, you don't want to stop listening to it (and will rather come to harm listening to their song than to self-preserve and go away).
• The singing of the Sirens is not Mind-Control Music either because 1) though the Sirens may also be playing musical instruments, they always sing. Their "siren song" is proverbial, and the thing they are most famous for. 2) They cannot make you do anything with their singing. The only thing they can make you do is to want to listen some more at all costs, forever.
• Brainwashed and Crazy and The Vamp are even more distant.

In short, I think that "siren-like being with supernatural voice-based mesmerizing power" is a genuine trope, and might as well have its own separate page.

Let's just say and leave it at that.

Wouldn't that be mentioned in the Our Sirens Are Different trope if it gets created anyway? That trope would probably mention what sirens are known for, including, most importantly, their charming voices?

Plus, Mind-Control Music already refers to sirens, so I think it does cover them. What do y'all think?

Hmm...that's a pretty tough call.

Personally, I agree with LordGro's reasoning, as I do think a new trope could be made from some "siren's song" misuse we have. Again, we may probably need a crowner for that.

With that, here's my crowner proposal:

• Rename Enthralling Siren to Our Sirens Are Different and patch up the description (not mutually exclusive with two other options).
• Make a new "siren's song" trope (mutually exclusive with moving examples to other tropes).
• Move all "siren's song" examples to other more fitting tropes (Compelling Voice, Mind-Control Music, etc.) (mutually exclusive with making a new "siren's song" trope).

Vi: Well, it's not like we're getting attacked by a giant wasp spider guardian! | Leif: Never combine those words ever again.

My vote is for making a Sirens Are Different and a Magical Skill trope, like Magical Weapon.

Skill being possibly separate from the body parts used to perform it, such that Magical Bodypart is a separate trope...

Edited by Malady on Aug 16th 2021 at 9:03:52 AM

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576

These are good options for a crowner.

To be frank, I think that renaming to Our Sirens Are Different probably is the advisable option—because the description of Enthralling Siren is much more an abstract on the Sirens of Classical Mythology than an attempt at describing the "Siren motif" generally.

In my opinion, voting for the creation of new tropes in TRS is a thing best avoided. Drafting a good trope and putting it through Trope Launch Pad needs time. During all this time, the TLP thread will stay open and block a slot in TLP. And of course, you need someone who is willing to actually do all this properly.

So, as much as I think that Singing Siren (or whatever) is a real trope, I wouldn't object to renaming this and move all wicks and examples that are not explicitly referencing the Sirens of mythology to any other tropes that fit, resp. delete them.

Let's just say and leave it at that.

to moving references to classical sirens to Our Sirens Are Different.
to turning this page into a disambiguation.
to moving misuse to other tropes.
to making a new trope for "compelling voice that doesn't give explicit orders".

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I went ahead and made a crowner.

Fixed it.

Edited by selkies on Aug 18th 2021 at 2:03:17 PM

Ah, it's cause the crowner type is Image Pickin, not Page Action.

Attached it.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

So if we do end up making the Siren's Song its own trope, what would its relation be to Compelling Voice and Mind-Control Music?

12:0 (12 votes) 2.25 : 1 (13 votes)

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Has anyone advertised the crowner on ATT?

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

Nope. Nobody did.

Vi: Well, it's not like we're getting attacked by a giant wasp spider guardian! | Leif: Never combine those words ever again.