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I--Vanya--I from Belarus
Jul 18th 2021 at 8:59:37 PM

Enthralling Siren suffers from a long-time issue of trying to simultaneously cover two similar, yet still different concepts: "a character possesses mesmerizing powers akin to a siren" and "Our Greco-Roman Sirens are Different".

A wick check was done to determine how the trope was used. The results were the following:

  • 19 wicks (38%) are used for sirens themselves;
  • 21 wick (42%) is used for characters who possess mesmerizing powers akin to sirens;
  • 10 wicks (20%) are either ZCEs or too unclear to tell what are they supposed to cover.

My suggestion? Well, there are two I can think of.

Though I personally prefer the split.

What's your word on this?

Berrenta Here comes the sun~ from Texas Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Here comes the sun~
WarJay77 Two Halves of a Whole Idiot from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Two Halves of a Whole Idiot
Jul 18th 2021 at 9:30:18 PM

I'm torn. The split is tempting, but I'm not sure how different the meaning would be from Compelling Voice.

On vacation until the 30th, will be on but not as much!
selkies Professional hedge trimmer Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Professional hedge trimmer
Jul 18th 2021 at 9:50:21 PM

I agree on making "different portrayals of sirens in media" a trope. But "a character can mesmerize others in a way similar to siren" is just "character has the ability to charm others" which is already covered by other tropes.

Might be less active these days because of college. I'll be more active again starting from Monday.
WarJay77 Two Halves of a Whole Idiot from The Void Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Two Halves of a Whole Idiot
Jul 18th 2021 at 9:51:21 PM

Maybe we can rename this one and make Enthralling Siren a disambig.

On vacation until the 30th, will be on but not as much!
I--Vanya--I from Belarus
Jul 18th 2021 at 11:38:25 PM

Well, I mean, I'm not against moving non-siren mesmerizing examples to already existing tropes, if that's what the thread would decide. But eh, let's wait for what others have to say on that matter.

Libraryseraph I may be small, but I'm tough! from Canada Relationship Status: Longing for Dulcinea
Synchronicity a scholar of magic Relationship Status: I've got a total eclipse of the heart
a scholar of magic
Jul 19th 2021 at 7:43:27 AM

Looking at the wick check...

I think there's merit to a Siren Song type of trope — "hauntingly beautiful voice that leads you to your death" is more specific than Compelling Voice, and there are some examples there that describe this type of voice.

"Siren motifs" can be neatly folded into the Our Sirens Are Different trope; I think other Our X tropes are used for examples like that for their respective creatures.

Definite [tup] to renaming to Our Sirens Are Different. Probably not Louder as using non-"Different" words hasn't always worked out for the best.

Edited by Synchronicity on Jul 19th 2021 at 9:44:31 AM

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I--Vanya--I from Belarus
Jul 19th 2021 at 10:50:18 AM

[up] and [up][up]Just so you know, "Our Sirens are Louder" was a trope's original name, and its nature as a bad snowclone was what led to it being renamed to the current name in the first place.

Edited by I--Vanya--I on Jul 19th 2021 at 8:59:12 PM

Jul 19th 2021 at 11:26:28 AM

[tup] Our Sirens Are Different trope (would be a supertrope of Sirens Are Mermaids). I'm not so sure whether one's beautiful song as lure or mind control method is too close to Compelling Voice or a subtrope.

Libraryseraph I may be small, but I'm tough! from Canada Relationship Status: Longing for Dulcinea
I may be small, but I'm tough!
GastonRabbit A real nowhere man from Robinson, Illinois, USA Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Jul 19th 2021 at 3:03:00 PM

I agree with renaming to Our Sirens Are Different and disambiguating between this and Compelling Voice (and any other potential tropes for examples that aren't about actual sirens).

The problem with the Our Sirens Are Louder name wasn't that it was a snowclone of the Our Monsters Are Different snowclone family, it's that the snowclone family must follow the "Our X Are Different" naming pattern, and replacing the word "Different" with something else isn't allowed. I think that's at least part of why Our Gods Are Greater was renamed to Our Gods Are Different (though misuse could have also played a part; I don't recall if I saw the thread).

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 19th 2021 at 12:36:30 PM

Don't bring me down, Groose!
Jul 20th 2021 at 8:49:07 PM

the snowclone family must follow the "Our X Are Different" naming pattern, and replacing the word "Different" with something else isn't allowed.

Well, not all mythical-creature tropes are "Our X Are Different" (for instance, Harping on About Harpies).

Jul 20th 2021 at 9:54:37 PM

What I mean (and I think what Gaston means) is that if a mythical/fantasy creature trope begins "Our X Are", the adjective following that MUST be "Different".

GastonRabbit A real nowhere man from Robinson, Illinois, USA Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Jul 21st 2021 at 5:23:41 AM

[up]That is indeed what I meant. I didn't mean all of them had names that followed that naming scheme, only that there are restrictions in place for ones that do use it.

Don't bring me down, Groose!
Jul 21st 2021 at 10:43:46 PM

I'll throw my hat in favor of "Our Sirens Are Different". I think there's also merit to a "mind-control music" trope, particularly because the idea isn't limited to just 'siren song'; I've seen music with instruments used that way.

EDIT: It appears I just proposed something that already exists. Thatís on me.

Edited by AnomalousEvolution on Jul 21st 2021 at 11:29:30 AM

selkies Professional hedge trimmer Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Professional hedge trimmer
Jul 22nd 2021 at 2:35:23 AM

Yeah, see? I think all the ideas y'all are suggesting are just The Same, but More Specific to existing tropes about controlling others through whatever sound.

I skimmed through the "characters w/ mesmerizing powers" folder in Vanya's wick check, and most of them can be at Compelling Voice instead.

Might be less active these days because of college. I'll be more active again starting from Monday.
SeptimusHeap On vacation from Southern Italy Relationship Status: Mu
On vacation
Jul 22nd 2021 at 3:57:50 AM

Compelling Voice should mention sirens somewhere, since they are like the prototypical example.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
GastonRabbit A real nowhere man from Robinson, Illinois, USA Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Jul 22nd 2021 at 11:51:39 AM

Our Sirens Are Louder is also a confusing name, as "siren" can also mean a device that makes alarm sounds.

selkies Professional hedge trimmer Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Professional hedge trimmer
Jul 22nd 2021 at 6:00:38 PM

I agree with Septimus. A line or two about how this is sirens' main ability or something being added to Compelling Voice should be sufficient.

Might be less active these days because of college. I'll be more active again starting from Monday.
Piterpicher Dislikes soulless stuff from Poland, for real Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
Dislikes soulless stuff
Jul 23rd 2021 at 7:04:52 AM

Agreed with making a single line. Ambivalent on making a Our Sirens Are Different trope.

Edited by Piterpicher on Jul 23rd 2021 at 4:05:28 PM

selkies Professional hedge trimmer Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Professional hedge trimmer
Jul 23rd 2021 at 6:31:46 PM

Why so?

Might be less active these days because of college. I'll be more active again starting from Monday.
Piterpicher Dislikes soulless stuff from Poland, for real Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
Dislikes soulless stuff
Jul 24th 2021 at 12:40:01 AM

I just don't have a particular opinion either way, at least as long as it avoids overlap with Sirens Are Mermaids, people can make it.

Edited by Piterpicher on Jul 24th 2021 at 9:42:13 PM


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