Misused: Hate Sink

That's almost what Complete Monster is already. I don't like that trope very much.

At any rater, speaking of Hate Sink, what's the plan now?

I would have to agree with Rusty.

At least "author designed this character to be loathsome" is somewhat of a plot and characterization device.

Again, Pot, I think you're misunderstanding what Complete Monster is. It's not very relevant here but I still suggest you look deeper into it.

Here is what Complete Monster means.

• The character is truly heinous by the standards of the story, which makes no attempt to present the character in any positive way.
• The character's terribleness is played seriously at all times, evoking fear, revulsion and hatred from the other characters in the story.
• They are completely devoid of altruistic qualities. They show no regret for their crimes.

No matter who many planets a villain destroys if they just have a case of Even Evil Has Loved Ones they can't count.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jun 30th 2021 at 12:48:34 PM

Sure, but in practice, you can't get any of that across without at least a full-paragraph essay on how terrible they are and how they like nobody and nobody likes them. And a great many of the current Hate Sink entries are pretty much identical to this.

Honestly, I'm starting to think I have a problem with getting myself across. Everyone here takes me too literally, then either tells me things I already know, or says they disagree when they actually agree.

Can we return to Hate Sink yet?

Edited by Potman on Jun 30th 2021 at 12:59:14 PM

Here's what I think:

• IMO, Hate Sink is distinct from CM in that the former doesn't allow Laughably Evil. A hate sink shouldn't be amusing or charismatic to the audience. They aren't given complexity nor necessarily definite motives for their vileness. While CM is only for villains, this trope could be for any despicable character; being a villain or an antagonist is optional.

• If the majority still feels like this is not trope-worthy / distinct from CM, we can yard it and archive the examples. We don't need to cling to this trope too much.

There's a lot different between CM and Hate Sink, but that's one of them, I suppose. You can't hate someone if you can laugh with them.

The major difference between Hate Sink and Complete Monster is that the former is an objective trope, while the latter is a YMMV item. Hate Sink, in its current definition, is a character that the author intends to make purely hateable, while Complete Monster is a YMMV item used to describe the most heinous characters. The reason why it’s not objective is because it’s more so how we view the character based on certain criteria, and less of a thing the author evidently intends to create.

The examples in the wick check that are foldered under “Complete Monsters / List of Transgressions or No Redeeming Factors” can be described more adequately as being written like Complete Monster entries, not actual Complete Monsters.

Yeah, you summed it up best, honestly though I have no idea what the solution to that problem would be beyond either deleting or indexing the trope, cleaning up misuse will help but it can't realistically be stopped completely without some drastic change.

Some thoughts:

1. Looking at the 'correct' section of the wick check:
   • It considers "x is intended to be unlikable" as correct use, ie. "x is intended to be hated". There's a difference of degree here; for example, Jane Austen (in one of two Word of God-confirmed examples of unlikability I can think of off the top of my head) famously called Emma "a heroine whom no one but myself will much like", but the character is closer to Jerk with a Heart of Gold (more emphasis on heart of gold) than what Hate Sink really seems to posit itself as.
   • A few of the examples are super low context, just 'the author obvs wanted u to hate this guy' without offering much of why.
2. With that in mind, I can totally understand why a casual troper would see "list of shitty things X did" as context for "intended hatred", because we're not inclined to like people who do shitty things. After all, that's how most objective tropes go: Alice is the only blonde, doesn't think narwhals exist, and flunks her English exam, so obviously she is intended to be a Dumb Blonde. Alice outs her brother, posts mean things about her best friend on Facebook, slashes her teacher's tires for fun, and sabotages the other girl at cheer tryouts, so obviously she is intended to be hateable. Like, if I weren't a left side troper I would think that was reasonable.
3. So, we don't like 'list of transgressions' CM-type examples, and we don't like requiring Word of God confirmation. Honest question then: how else does one properly and consistently contextualize intended unlikability? Because I honestly did not get a good sense of this from the wick check (#1)
4. Assuming we come up with a good answer, can we trust the regular troperbase to do #3 and not #2?
5. ETA: Assuming the answer to #4 is no, are we willing to do a more drastic change, like rename or start a monitoring thread?

Edited by Synchronicity on Jun 30th 2021 at 7:54:06 AM

Those are all good questions and ones I don't really have a good answer to.

That's all why I also think there's more to the trope than just "character meant to be hated". You can't easily describe that without dipping into a list of transgressions. That's why I advocate for the "void-induced lightning rod" criteria, which can be contextualized. It's the difference between "Alice is a horrible person and we should all hate her" and "Alice was designed to be as despicable as possible to ramp up the tension and create conflict where none would typically exist". It not only adds meaning and purpose to the Hate Sink but also gives more ways for tropers to add context.

FWIW though, the check wasn't to check "correct" usage but just usage in general. The folder you're referring to was just the description-based usage, not necessarily more correct than any of the other ones.

The issue, I think, with a "list of transgressions" style post is that it doesn't necessarily correlate to a Hate Sink. I can make one right now for, say, Ebony Dementia Dark'ness Raven Way despite that she's meant to be the protagonist and thus liked (if you assume the story isn't a troll, which for this discussion is what I'll go with):

• Ebony is a rude, spoiled, wangsty brat who sleeps with everyone regardless of who she's actually dating, curses constantly, tortures Brittany, is mean to everyone she meets, hates Dumblydore despite that he tries to help her, and a willing, casual murderer of everyone from unnamed Hufflepuff students to anyone she dislikes.

Characters who are that awful are usually meant to be hated, but it's not cut and dry and it's far more about narrative response and framing than simply "x does bad things".

Hell, you can make one for practically any character if you spin it properly. Here's Spongebob:

• Spongebob is annoying, childish, and loud. Torturing his neighbor Squidward on the daily, he's a Karma Houdini who is almost never punished for his abuses. He also destroyed the town numerous times, likely killing many Bikini-Bottomites in boating accidents or foolish shenanigans, and all without remorse. He beat up Flatts, the Strangler and even his bestfriend Patrick. He abuses his snail Gary, once refusing to feed him, and other times leaving him with dangerous people who want to hurt him. He even hurts the Jellyfish population with his constant fishing habits.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jun 30th 2021 at 9:03:59 AM

But if we are to take the usage we see in the multiple wick checks as representative, then I don't think Hate Sink as it is now, a list of super-duper-jerks, can be salvaged into this.

I mean, the usage does exist, it's just not as common. But it's something we can still work with if we had to.

Would it be difficult? Yeah, but it's not impossible.

Sorry, posting again because the post was edited:

Sure. But again though: can we trust the troperbase to be able to distinguish this without some major overhaul like a rename or thread, especially given how entrenched Hate Sink has been so far?

Anything is possible, but I'm really just not convinced it's worth it for this one. Like, we may as well start from scratch.

Getting people willing and able to do this is going to be a massive task, considering how much there is.

I seriously doubt we would.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Jun 30th 2021 at 6:03:57 AM

I agree, the current usage makes this hard to work with.

The thing is this is one of those kinds of tropes where we see a problem but there isn't really a viable solution beyond cleaning up misuse when we see it.

Well, we're still having trouble pinning down what Hate Sink even is, since we all seem to have a different meaning in mind.

The wick check proved at least that there's little overlap with the other tropes.

My thoughts.

I think Hate Sink should only apply when the main antagonist/cause of the conflict cannot properly be rooted agains for whatever reason (sympathetic, cool, entertaining, too unrealistic/over the top, lacks agency, or can't be considered a character (e.g. a social system or natural disaster) and thus the narrative needs someone else for audiences to root against in order to keep them properly vested in the plot, hence the "Sink". (Umbridge is a good HS example as the main villains, besides being too over-the-top, spend most of the work offscreen and thus she give us someone too root against interim.)

Villains are supposed to be rooted against by default (Anti-Villain and similar are distinct sub-tropes for being exceptions) so making the main villains Hate Sinks doesn't seem tropeworthy as it doesn't innately change their role or impact in the narrative. (Most HS and main villain crossovers are CMs.)

Has it been considered to make Hate Sink a supertrope for any character that is meant to be disliked?

I don't think most of the tropers here are in favor of that.

That seems like chairs if it's done so generally.

I agree with both points above. In addition, I still think there's much more potential there - much more specific - than simply a trope for characters to be hated.

Edited by Potman on Jul 1st 2021 at 8:05:08 AM

But is that potential practical, given

1. Given the wick check usage and

2. The number of wicks?