Undertale Cleanup thread

I'll add my issues tomorrow. Thanks for informing me of this thread.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.

How bad is the gushing on both games anyway?

Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!

Can't really speak for the Undertale pages, but the Deltarune ones don't seem to have much in the way of gushing, at least not where I've looked; even the Awesome Music page feels fairly subdued, lacking any "THIS IS THE BEST THING EVER AND TOBY FOX IS A GOD"-type stuff.

The one Deltarune page that seems to have the most frequent issues is the Shout-Out one, largely because Toby's penchant for really out-there references can often lead to speculative troping (e.g. a now-deleted point claiming that Spamton "seem[s] to reference" an old soda commercial, which despite the uncanny parallels doesn't have as solid of a basis for non-Word of God confirmation as, say, Flowey's Ronald McDonald voice clips, not to mention that "seem[s] to reference" indicates speculation in and of itself).

Edited by bowserbros on Oct 9th 2021 at 10:07:48 AM

Be kind.

Characters.Deltarune Other Characters lists the Angel's Heaven, which is kinda weird to us since we didn't even think it was a character?

Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.

Now that you bring it up, IIRC we're never actually told what the Angel's Heaven is in either of the available chapters beyond the fact that it'll appear when the balance of light and dark is seriously disrupted. With that in mind, treating it as a character feels somewhat speculative.

Edited by bowserbros on Oct 13th 2021 at 5:11:08 AM

Be kind.

Yeah, that doesn't feel right. I always envisioned the Angel's Heaven as some kind of phenomenon that occurs when the balance is off. I think it should go because it's way too early to know if the Angel's Heaven is even real, let alone a proper character.

I don't actually have any Bumblebee icons, I just think the nickname is funny.

Agreed, it should be removed.

Alright, just cut the folder from the page and included the thread in the edit summary; made sure to remove its mention from the note on Characters.Deltarune as well.

Be kind.

Looking at YMMV.Deltarune, I found this:

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• Best Boss Ever:
  • The King ups the ante from Undertale in, well, spades. He consistently messes with your dodging area in ways that would have Sans taking notes, forcing you to stay moving, and has an absolutely badass Boss Remix of the Card Castle music to go with it.
  • The Bonus Boss of Chapter 1, Jevil, due to being akin to the absolutely brutal exclusive bosses from the Genocide route of Undertale, along with his battle theme being considered on-par with King's theme.
  • The minor bosses are no slouch in the creativity department either. Susie and Lancer fight as a team, complete with a Popple and Rookie-esque duo attack, and the second fight with K. Round implements a trajectory system just so you can hurl Ralsei at him for a speedy victory.
  • Queen, Chapter 2's boss, is a step-up from King, who already was impressive himself. She has a wide array of attacks, many with her signature humor, and rather than being a waiting game, the merciful method of winning requires you to take an active effort in freeing Berdly from his wire. The real fight, though, is her second form: the superpowered Thrash Machine versus Giga Queen, a Humongous Mecha battle that applies RPG Elements to an intense match of Punch-Out!!.
  • Chapter 2's Bonus Boss Spamton NEO, in a way, delivers on something fans of Undertale had wanted for years; a true battle against Mettaton NEO. It takes the Yellow SOUL mechanics and expands on them, adding a charged shot and power-ups that Susie and Ralsei can create using TP, while Spamton's... eccentric personality gives him a whole array of bizarre attacks for you to deal with. Topping it all off is the music, which takes elements from "Power of NEO" and "THE WORLD REVOLVING" and combines them with Spamton's own theme to incredible effect.

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I bring this up because Best Boss Ever is a redirect to AwesomeBosses.Video Games. Given the latter's formatting (in standard "X/Y" formatting it appears as Video Games, which would make no sense in this context) and origins (being a subsection of SugarWiki.Moment Of Awesome), can it even be used on YMMV pages?

The best compromise solution I can think of is moving the list to Awesome.Deltarune, but even then I don't think it works like that; a part of me wonders if they should just be deleted from the YMMV page altogether. I've already copied them onto AwesomeBosses.Undertale and divided the Undertale and Deltarune examples into separate folders, so they'll still be visible somewhere if they're deleted. Thoughts on what to do?

Edited by bowserbros on Oct 16th 2021 at 10:26:11 AM

Be kind.

I'd say to just leave it for now. It's a relic but a functional one.

Alright, I'll keep that in mind.

Be kind.

wingedcatgirl removed this from Deltarune Chapter 2 under Guide Dang It! with the edit reason "there are lots of hints to the weird route and it can definitely be found just by playing the game":

• Unlike Chapter 1, there's a hidden genocide route in Chapter 2 that involves manipulating Noelle into becoming a killer; freezing every enemy in the city - even the ones you need to backtrack to, choosing every option that could pass like a Ship Tease between her and Kris, and then insisting you get the extremely overpriced ring one of the merchants is selling you, this causes her to become more determined, more aggressive and more focused on moving forward no matter what. If every enemy is frozen with all these criteria up to the second fight with Berdly, it changes drastically, and if it's resolved in this route's unique way, from then on the player is locked in a much bleaker, more upsetting story path. It's likely this route was tucked away behind so many contrivances because unlike Undertale where one could plausibly over-farm into Genocide, getting onto this route shows the player knows about it and was going out of their way to get on it so they're fully aware of the horrible things they need to do. The route was also likely intended to be discovered via datamining (something fans did a lot of to find all of the secrets in Undertale) rather than standard play, given that some of Spamton NEO's lines about "seeing too far" could be taken as allusions towards the practice.

I think the Weird Route is definitely a valid example; it's so cryptic that they had to clarify it wasn't a hoax when it was first discovered. Maybe remove the last part about it being intended to be discovered through datamining, since it wasn't as far as I know.

Keet cleanup

"They" had to clarify it wasn't a hoax not because it's hard to find, but because it's bizarre; it sounds like a creepypasta. But the game makes it very clear that defeating enemies with IceShock is not normal, and after freezing the very first enemy encountered with Noelle, the game literally beeps at you every time you cancel the route so you're never lost as to whether you're doing it right.

That you didn't choose violence in a game that actively discourages it doesn't make it hard to think of.

And it was discovered without datamining, so it clearly wasn't intended to be impossible to find otherwise.

Edited by wingedcatgirl on Oct 18th 2021 at 7:49:28 AM

Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.

So this just got added to YMMV.Deltarune:

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• Ron the Death Eater: Kris is an interesting case. They're Ambiguously Evil and not much is known about them, but from what we do know, they're definitely not evil enough to straight up murder someone, even if they are someone like Berdly. And most of the fandom follows on this interpretation, seeing them as a Stoic Woobie who's forced to do evil by the SOUL. However, there is still a portion of the fanbase that will paint them as an Omnicidal Maniac who wants to Kill Em All thanks to them opening up another Dark Fountain at the end of Chapter 2. However, it's worth to note that Kris' motivations for this are largely unknown, like most of their character. However, from the characterization we're given for them, it's definitely not because they want to kill somebody; That doesn't stop the fans from acting like this is their ultimate goal.

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While I have noticed a fair number of "Kris is secretly evil" interpretations from part of the fanbase, which would normally make this a valid entry, the YMMV page has a note saying not to add Alternative Character Interpretation examples until after the full game has been released. I was under the impression that Ron the Death Eater was a sub-trope of that (since it revolves around fans re-characterizing someone as more antagonistic than they actually are), so with that in mind, I think it might be much too early to have this point on here.

Incidentally, within the same editing session, the same editor deleted a premature Alternative Character Interpretation point, directly citing the note, so this is probably just a case of, well, alternative trope interpretations.

Either way, should the Ron the Death Eater point be removed for now until the full game drops, or is it okay to leave it in?

Edited by bowserbros on Oct 24th 2021 at 4:13:48 AM

Be kind.

Sounds like a way to skirt the restriction. Feel free to delete it.

Alright, just did.

Be kind.

Given that Deltarune only has two chapters out, should we be categorically scrubbing all examples that attempt to claim a per-chapter pattern?

Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.

Three is the smallest number required to create a pattern, so anything claiming per-chapter patterns should go.

I don't actually have any Bumblebee icons, I just think the nickname is funny.

According to this ATT thread, there's currently an edit war in what appears to be Kris' character page, as a troper assumes that Kris is the Knight and refers to him as such in the main page. Such thing is clearly speculative troping.

However, I'm not sure if we should get involved just yet because as I said, it's an edit war. I've never been involved in one before and I'm afraid of escalating it.

SpaceBattles.com fanworks (unnoficial) index in my Sandbox.

Yeah, I've seen that thread. My best suggestion is to remove the points claiming that Kris is the Knight and add a note at the top of Kris' page stating that whether or not they are the Knight is not truly determinable at this moment and therefore qualifies as speculative troping. There's already entries on WMG.Deltarune Kris Chara The Soul The Vessel WMG.Deltarune The Angel The Knight speculating that Kris is or is controlled by the Knight in some way, shape, or form, so it'd be redundant to add that material there.

(Also, quick clarification, Kris is referred to in-game with "they/them" pronouns.)

Be kind.

I agree, we should remove the claims that Kris is the Knight, since for now that's just speculation.

Thing is, that's exactly what wingedcatgirl already did. Thatother1dude simply deleted her note and replaced it with one that was arguing for speculation.

Hate sites were always doomed to fail. The only thing that can make someone hate a franchise with total certainty is the franchise itself.

I'd say wait a day for anyone else to chime in on this thread. If there's no surge of objections by then, we should replace the note and mention that it was decided by the thread's consensus, and that if anyone wants to remove it or add speculation about the Knight they need to discuss it either here or on Ask The Tropers.

Ah right, forgot about that, sorry. If anything, I will say that Thatother1dude's behavior warrants mod action given their handling of the on-page note.

That seems like a viable way of going about things, at least to me. Anyone else have thoughts or suggestions?

Be kind.

Okay, its been more than a day and no one has objected. I'll remove the claims about Kris being the Knight and will link to this thread.

Edited by Orbiting on Nov 7th 2021 at 11:00:29 AM