Cleaning Anvilicious and Some Anvils Need to be Dropped

I feel like Anvil of the Story is analogous to Esperanto in a way.

Esperanto was created to solve a problem (the existence of Language Barriers), but because it was new, not enough people knew about it, and so it never took off. Same can be said for this page.

YMMV.Superman Smashes The Klan

• Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped:
  • The story is heavy-handed with its anti-racism and anti-cultism message, but given that it's written at a time where racial tensions are spiking again, it's certainly not unwarranted.
  • Dr. Wilson's Motive Rant (itself an Adaptation Expansion of a similar, if shorter moment from the serial the comic is adapting) is actually a blunt but accurate summation of an often overlooked and especially insidious aspect of systemic racism. He freely admits that he's Only in It for the Money, doesn't buy into any of his own racist rhetoric, and that exploiting the racism of dumber, poorer recruits is how he and men like him maintain power and privilege, and is happy to employ the service of "lesser" races as long as they further his agenda and position. In real life, rich politicians and businessmen frequently enact policies that harm both poorer whites and minorities alike (the latter disproportionately so) while blaming the latter for the consequences of their actions so the latter two groups are too busy fighting each other to hold their own leadership to account.
    Dr. Wilson: You stupid fool! You think the world is divided by race, but really, it's divided by power! I have power and you do not! Our skin may be the same color, but you and I are nothing alike! You are an insect! I am a God!

Shall I cut this?

Honestly, I think both of those entries seem valid because they point out how the messages are very blunt, but that they are more informative because of it. It's not just a "this is the message look how good it is!" entry.

What part of it says these are more informative? These just say "these messages are totally necessary you guys! it's totally relevant!"

The first one is especially bad, it's just saying "its warranted because people needed to have their beliefs that racism is a bad thing confirmed"

It dosen't tell us that it makes the work any better, just that it's gushing about how good the message is.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Mar 30th 2021 at 3:39:18 PM

SANTBD isn't really about the work being made better by the messages. It's about the message being made better by a blunt delivery. Hell, the example in the description is very analogous to this one:

"Consider, for instance, Harriet Beecher-Stowe's Uncle Tom's Cabin and its anvilicious message "slavery is bad". It is not a subtle message and generally not considered great literature. However, it came when many Americans imagined that slavery was good for black people. Effective anti-slavery propaganda was badly needed."

Of course, the item is so broken at this point that I still believe cleanup is fruitless until we get a TRS.

Let me rephrase that then. I don’t know why people would want “racism is bad” to be reinforced into their skulls. This isn’t the early to mid 20th century or anything. At this point it’s just confirmation bias.

I really don’t think the message was made any better by being heavy handed about something that most people think is bad.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Mar 30th 2021 at 8:28:20 AM

It is YMMV. From YMMV.Home Page:

• Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped: It is YMMV as some viewers of a piece of media won’t consider it necessary to deliver a moral, or that the writer(s) are preaching to the choir.

You're demonstrating exactly the reaction described here.

I noticed you already removed it from the YMMV page, citing your above comment. But consensus was not reached on that. And personally, I'm siding with "seems valid"; I can see where it's coming from.

Okay, but the entry is still written like it’s fact and that there must be something wrong with you for not agreeing with the entry.

Even with the valid entries, they still seem like they’re gushing about it.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Mar 30th 2021 at 8:43:09 AM

I think you're reading too much into it. I've seen judgmental YMMV entries before, but this one doesn't cast judgment on anybody besides the people the comic is satirizing.

Again, SANTBD is inherently gushy, so by the standards of that mess of a YMMV item, this one is currently valid.

Edited by mightymewtron on Mar 30th 2021 at 7:44:16 AM

What if they were rephrased:

• The story is heavy-handed with its anti-racism and anti-cultism message, but given that it's written at a time where racial tensions are spiking again, to many the heavy-handedness works in its favor.
• Dr. Wilson's Motive Rant (itself an Adaptation Expansion of a similar, if shorter moment from the serial the comic is adapting) is seen as a blunt but accurate summation of an often overlooked and especially insidious aspect of systemic racism. [...]

The "to some" and "to many" phrasing is kind of Weasel Wordy, but if it puts an end to this argument then I'm fine with it.

You can do whatever you like. If it fits, it fits.

I’ll back off now, since the thread seems to agree on the example. I feel like I was a little trigger happy with the delete.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Mar 30th 2021 at 9:41:32 AM

I restored the examples.

Regarding the Superman vs the Klan example, I edited it to expand the first example so that it's not just "This message is needed", but I saw there was some discussion in the history tab, so I'm bringing it up here.

Example currently reads:

• The story is heavy-handed with its anti-racism and anti-cultism message, but given that it's written at a time where racial tensions are spiking again, it's certainly not unwarranted.

This reads like "The message is necessary/needed because of the current rising in racial tensions." My proposed edit is this:

• The story is heavy-handed with its anti-racism and anti-cultism message, but given that it's written at a time where racial tensions are spiking again, anything less than being in your face about it wouldn't have the same impact and wouldn't have made for as compelling a story.

That's fine by me.

Me too.

It's fine.

Found this on The Addams Family:

• Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped: Wednesday goes off-script during the summer camp pageant. She gives a Breaking Speech about how the colonizers talk about how they are civilized, but they will put the actual natives on reservations, making them sell bracelets by the road and live in mobile homes. Also, Pocahontas wasn't even Chippewa or at the first Thanksgiving so this is a stupid play based on glorifying history. Everyone is in Stunned Silence, except for Amanda complaining that Wednesday is improvising and failing to see the danger. If not for the fact that Wednesday finishes up her speech with the Loser Kids attacking the pageant, and stopping the adults from interfering, it would practically be a Character Filibuster.

I'd call that an in-universe example of Anvilicious. It's not describing anything about fan reaction to the scene, so it's definitely something that doesn't belong on the YMMV page...

Doesn't really explain how the lack of subtlety helps there. It could in fact just be Character Filibuster.

Edited by mightymewtron on Apr 5th 2021 at 1:09:28 PM

Right it's just summarizing her speech.

I apologize if I'm not allowed to ask this, but I notice that the Fan Works section of Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped has been cut. I'm curious, is there any particular reason why? If it's something that can't be discussed, then never mind.

Misuse, it looks like. Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped is absurdly misused as "An Aesop that is very important" instead of the actual definition of "story is better because its moral was Anvilicious"

This was the cut reason listed:

This entry seems self-contradictory.

YMMV.The Mitchells Vs The Machines

• Anvilicious: Many viewers, upon seeing the trailer, called out the film for having the long clichéd "phones are bad you should spend more time with your family" Aesop that hits you in the face. Chris Miller on Twitter refuted that this is more a case of Never Trust a Trailer and was vindicated upon the film's release, which goes for a more neutral viewpoint that technology in and of itself is neither bad nor good, but depends on how people use it.