Unreleased Work Page Cleanup (Speculation, Spoilers, ZCE etc.)

That is speculation. Things change between trailers and the final release version all the time. Most of it will likely be the same, but some might change. Since we don't yet know what will change and what will stay the same, we should restrict ourselves to describing what happens in the material to which we actually have access.

Edited by HighCrate on Sep 18th 2019 at 10:52:08 AM

Unreleased is not the same speculative. We are being explicitly told things by the work and its creators themselves to expect things. That's not guesswork, that's taking in concrete information and putting it on the page in the same way that it would be once we actually get to experience it for ourselves. Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean that this wasn't what we are explicitly told to expect.

Edited by number9robotic on Sep 18th 2019 at 10:56:07 AM

Pre-release gameplay footage is not the game. Being "told what to expect" from Word of God is not the same thing as having the game in your hand. Things can and do change before release, whether because the creator is being intentionally misleading, because they simply change their mind, or because the final product turns out differently than intended due to Executive Meddling, logistical realities, or any number of other factors.

I've tried to help you find ways to include citations in your entries so that they can be restored, and I'm happy to continue if that's something you're interested in.

I'm not interested in debating the policy on unreleased works with you any longer. The policy is what it is.

Edited by HighCrate on Sep 18th 2019 at 11:00:42 AM

This is the thread for debating the policy.

We have strict rules already active here that must be followed. But do feel free to put your point of view in the other thread. We encourage different viewpoints as is. Keep in mind it doesn't mean we'll agree with yours, though.

To say it more clearly, this thread in itself is not a place for debating the policy. Due to various issues with derails in this thread due to policy discussion, we made a new thread to make sure this one stays on task.

And this is even more true of my Breakpoint edits.

• "Seems to be" as he is seen wielding them twice. One of the scenes being a shootout where such a weapon is rather obviously Awesome, but Impractical.
• Walker's introductory cutscene from the game has been included in the "First fifteen minutes" video from IGN, who without a doubt received permission from Ubisoft to post it as representative of the final product, as it's not described as "beta", "work in progress" or anything. That same video is linked to in the article and cited as the source of Villain Opening Scene trope. Which should explain the phrase "in the game" more than enough.

Edited by NotSoBadassLongcoat on Sep 18th 2019 at 8:12:54 PM

Very well, taking this to the unreleased work policy feedback thread.

"Seems to be" as he is seen wielding them twice. One of the scenes being a shootout where such a weapon is rather obviously Awesome, but Impractical.

Can we include that information in the entry text? That's way more informative and specific than just saying "it seems to be his favorite."

It does state exactly that! The second sentence details the exact situations Walker is shown using the handcannons in, and I'm leaving one more example from a later cutscene until release.

That and the game doesn't really show how bringing a revolver to a massive firefight between people using assault rifle is impractical, so I'm mentioning the Awesome, but Impractical trope here only.

Edited by NotSoBadassLongcoat on Sep 18th 2019 at 8:55:46 PM

number9robotic has restored several entries on Death Stranding, some with alterations, some without. As they are still under active dispute, I motion that we re-hide them until we reach consensus on the wording in this thread.

Most of the entries have the same problem: they say something like "the trailer shows that" or "as shown in the gameplay footage," and then proceed to speak as though it were referring to the final work.

Perhaps the word "citation" is causing a misunderstanding. We are not interested in what the trailers and gameplay footage "show" or "prove" about the final work. We're not troping the final work. It's not available to the public yet.

What is available to the public is what we're concerned with here. I've tried to use Bandit Mook as an example to help number9robotic arrive at a wording that sticks to describing the material to which we actually have access, and I'm happy to continue working on that with them or anyone else who is interested in doing so.

However, the way it's currently worded is a Band-aid, not a solution.

Edited by HighCrate on Sep 18th 2019 at 5:52:51 AM

number9robotic has gone right back to adding entries to VideoGame.Death Stranding with wording that explicitly refers to the final game (which is not publicly available and may not be troped) and no citations other than weblinks, after having been told by several people both here and in the Policy Feedback thread that this is unacceptable.

He is directly and knowingly violating policy. Hollering the mods.

Edited by HighCrate on Sep 18th 2019 at 9:03:16 AM

I'm not okay with this. robotic didn't do anything wrong. He included full context and provided links to his source, and when HighCrate demanded he state the source in text, he amended his examples to make those statements. He gave his reasons here for treating his examples as if they are in the final game, and as far as I'm concerned, they're perfectly valid.

Meanwhile, I see no indication that HighCrate contacted robotic to inform him that there was still a "problem" even after the adjustments to state the source. And, frankly, while he made a fuss about the matter both on the work page and in this thread, he didn't do anything to actually attempt to correct the examples himself. I'll be blunt — as much as HighCrate likes to harp on how we're all doing things "wrong", I've seen very little effort from him to take the edits he shoots down and do them "right".

So no, I don't believe robotic's actions deserve mod attention. Not when he's made good-faith attempts to conform to the policy.

Yeah, this is ridiculous. The new edits that robotic made on the page contain plenty of context and both a linked and written citation to where the tropes occur in the demo and trailer. These are also brand new tropes that robotic is not edit-warring over. HighCrate calling in mods because they don't like the precise wording of the edits is much more a problem with them, and not robotic.

Come on, if he tries some weasely lawyering and lawyery weaseling to shoot down a trope, and then says that the description he just shot down is acceptable when actually incorrectly rephrased, we have a problem.

Some of number9robotic's edits had at least a token attempt at a citation, although the wording is still problematic for reasons I explain above.

A few are even more problematic than that however, such as his multi-bullet Product Placement entry, which has links but no in-text citations, added directly after it was explained to him at length that citations are required by policy.

Additionally, he restored the following Genre-Busting entry without alteration, directly after it was explained to him that Word of God saying a trope will happen is not the same as the trope actually happening in material to which the public has access:

• Genre-Busting: Hideo Kojima repeatedly refers to Death Stranding as the first of its kind as a subgenre of action game, dubbed a "strand game". As it stands, the game is an exploration and navigation-heavy post-apocalyptic sci-fi sandbox adventure featuring action, stealth, and horror elements, as well as an online system encouraging players to assist one another in their quests.

I submit that Genre-Busting is one of those tropes that requires knowledge of the entire work to know whether it applies. (It's also a shoehorning magnet and a gushing magnet, but that's neither here nor there.) I move that the entry, which is currently merely hidden, be deleted altogether.

Many of the others could be made acceptable with wording changes to refer to publicly-available material instead of the final, unreleased work, and I'm happy to work with anyone interested in doing so on that, as I attempted to do with number9robotic and Bandit Mook.

Edited by HighCrate on Sep 19th 2019 at 5:47:24 AM

Self-thumped. It was a misunderstanding.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Sep 19th 2019 at 9:15:20 AM

Going by the above posts, it might be worth adding that to the actual edit itself, rather than the edit reason.

Edited by sgamer82 on Sep 19th 2019 at 8:10:03 AM

Sorry for the confusion. The message wasn't about Speculative Troping; it was a "thank you" notifier for the ZCE cleanup you did on the page. I've been meaning to do that for a while and never seemed to get around to it.

ZCE cleanup is a tedious and thankless task, and I like to give people a proverbial "thumbs up" when I happen to notice them doing it.

Edited by HighCrate on Sep 19th 2019 at 7:15:30 AM

It was a misunderstanding. He was actually thanking me for cleaning up things on VideoGame.The Legend Of Zelda Links Awakening that weren't related to the Switch remake. Apologies for jumping to conclusions.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Sep 19th 2019 at 9:17:06 AM

No need to apologize! Totally understandable miscommunication, easily sorted out. Everyone gets hugs.

Edited by HighCrate on Sep 19th 2019 at 7:18:33 AM

There has been another leak for Pokémon Sword and Shield. Once again, make sure you're keeping to the stuff that's officially revealed.

All the "important" pages are already locked (unless it's like trainers or gym leaders or something) barring the trivia page and the Pokémon sandbox (I'm like the only person who edits it anyway so that one isn't a big deal in my opinion), so it'll probably be fine.

Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Sep 19th 2019 at 2:48:32 PM

So, since Shin Sakura Wars is going to be released on December 12 to be exact, would it be wrong if I create a sandbox to hash out all of the tropes in the game and move them to the main page in the weeks leading up to its release?

Edited by gjjones on Sep 21st 2019 at 3:05:59 PM

I'm avoiding it because A) it could be fake, and B) if it's real I don't want to be spoiled.