Hate Sink cleanup

Cut Baby

Found this on MÄR character page about King of the Chess Pieces.

• Hate Sink: Even being the embodiment of all of the world's evil in either Mar Heaven or Ginta's world; he's still a sadistic Social Darwinist who brainwashed Phantom and Diana. into being the hated villains that nearly orchestrated an apocalypse on Mar Heaven twice, killing countless innocents. He also used Ginta's father's body in attempt to play a Mind Rape on Ginta in order to kill him more easily. And unlike his subordinates, he neither has a Freudian Excuse or is portrayed with any redeeming qualities.
  • The anime makes him even worse if it wasn't possible. He kills his entire Chess Piece army for the sin of losing to Team Mar, proceeds to brutally kill each of Team Mar one by one, use his host, Danna to emotionally attack Alviss and Ginta with sadistic relish while using that weakness as a distraction to attempt to kill them, and once he's in his true body, destroys a portion of Tokyo just as a show of power. And on top of this, he only acts this way when he has the upper hand, and briefly panicked when he was on the other end when Alviss resolved to take down King with him. No one misses him once he's gone for good.

Don’t know about his manga version, but going by YMMV his Anime incarnation is widely seen as cool for being No-Nonsense Nemesis Hero Killer. Plus, both entries are written pretty CM lite.

Edited by EmperorGeode on Apr 27th 2024 at 9:09:03 AM

Baby for sure does not count as a Hate Sink so cut him out of the list. As for the other one well I say cut as well from what I read and doesn’t have many qualities why he is considered a HS

Frollo has been added to HateSink.Animated Films again (granted that was a sock of a serial ban evader) despite him repeatedly being discussed and deemed not to be a Hate Sink several times now, can I remove Frollo again and add a hidden note telling people not to readd him? I know we have such a note on his Character Page and I think it's best to extend that note to the Animated Films too.

Edited by jlvs200s on Apr 30th 2024 at 4:41:03 PM

I really think we need a NA list for this trope. I do think also there is some misconceptions that a villain representing far-right or bigoted beliefs automatically qualify for HS because of how odious and horrific these beliefs are, yet at the end of the day while these beliefs or mentalities are clear red flags, we also have to see if these characters exclude anything else that could keep them off this trope or have any other disqualifiers(ie: EIC) significantly undermined.

Edited by xie323 on Apr 30th 2024 at 7:58:53 AM

I do agree with having a NA list for any character that got misterpreted for the trope itself such as Frollo.

That depends on the circumstances if anything unless it goes too far or not having valid reason why they are considered a hs by others.

No.

NA lists and the like only work for CM, where the thread controls everything. That doesn't fly here. Where would it even go, and what impact would it have on anything?

You can just add a commented out note not to add an example to the page.

McLeach from The Rescuers Down Under is listed as a Hate Sink on his Character Page. He is a horrible human being, sure, but his bumbling antics and hamminess are comedy gold. Should he be taken off the list?

Yeah.

Cut Frollo (again) and McLeach

Soooo, Am I fine to add a hidden note telling people not to readd Frollo to HateSink.Animated Films? Here's what I have I mind (and yes, this is mostly copied from the note on his character page):

• Frollo from The Hunchback of Notre Dame (Disney) has been determined not to count as a Hate Sink by the cleanup thread due to having too many Evil Is Cool moments and being too complex. Please do not re-add an entry for him on this page.

I don't know if it is necessary

Mc Leach is far from the trope if anything. I think the only reason why they are included in the trope is because of just actions and not the entire character itself.

As for this well that depends if it's either good or necessary for the edit.

Mc Leach is undoubtedly a bastard, but he's just too Laughably Evil to be a Hate Sink IMO.

Shouldn't Evil Is Cool a YMMV concept? If it is, it shouldn't be put in a narrative trope considering the trope is based on audience's interpretation. The narrative clearly paints Frollo while cool at some point, still being detestable and meant to be depised by others.

Also, read Shadao's post in page 1. He would tell you why Frollo should remain on this trope.

Edited by CartoonLGBTfanofallTime on May 4th 2024 at 4:42:26 PM

It is, yes. A Hate Sink can be Evil Is Cool since intentions don't always match reality. But Frollo has been discussed to death and the consensus is that he doesn't count.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 4th 2024 at 12:20:13 PM

Evil Is Cool is YMMV, Hate Sink is not. As always, people need to stop mixing them together when considering factors, they go from opposite perspectives.

That post is from five years ago, though; the rules of this thread (and Hate Sink itself) have changed since then. You're welcome to ask about how it fluctuates if you think the cleanup process is unclear, but please don't make assumptions that don't take the big picture into account. The same applies to what counts as an Edit War.

Edited by Coachpill on May 4th 2024 at 3:55:55 PM

If there's a need to change the OP, ~gjjones or mods can be asked to do that, though specifics are requires of what should be changed.

@Cartoon LGB Tfanofall Time

That was back when author's intent was the big factor. It was something I heavily emphasized on. But then, a problem occurred that caused a redefining of the trope.

Author's intent became muddled when talking about villains like Voldemort and Darkseid. It was clear that the authors based them on the worst kinds of people, and yet people note that these villains have cool aesthetic and people actually love them for it. Even make posters and toys of them unironically. And there are villains that seem too complex of a character to simply sum up as a Hate Sink.

So now, the emphasis of Hate Sink as far as I can tell is how "uncool" the character is. And the problem with Frollo is that he's very complex as a character and he does have an Evil Is Cool Villain Song despite being a rather realistic character. You will not see this in Lady Tremaine, the quintessential example of a Disney Hate Sink. I wouldn't say that Frollo is 100% not a Hate Sink, but he's not a straight example at all.

Well, we still emphasize intent, it's literally why these characters exist, but we're more strict about how we rule it. Characters can be despicable people but still be made for the audience to like them, to an extent.

• Monsters, Inc.: Randall Boggs. All of the previous Pixar villains had at least one good point or two but Randall is a whole different story. He's a ruthless, arrogant bully who is willing to do anything for personal gain. Even in the prequel, where he seems to be an awkward, friendly geek, he quickly turns his back on Mike with no remorse the minute he finds more popular friends to bump his status. And, as nasty as the implications were, it can be incredibly satisfying to watch him get trapped in the human world and get beaten up with a shovel by a hillbilly mom.

Now I heard he actually returns at MAW but I feel I should bring this up considering the sources that were found and to clear everything up about this. It runs out there was a planned redemption for him in the scrapped sequel. This is kind of giving me the same vibes as Drago where he was planned for a redemption so considering the circumstance including what happened in university according to what other people told me. Once again not saying he should be cut I just want the truth and clarification. If you don’t believe the example should be removed that’s ok, I respect your opinion on the matter.

Edited by Echidna on May 6th 2024 at 3:10:05 PM

The entry reads like a soft CM post and uses too many comparisons when it should be focusing on how unlikable he is, in each work separately. If he's an example for Monsters, Inc. and Monsters University, but not for Monsters at Work, it can say so instead of lumping all together.

@Shadao I'm thinking of using ZigZagged trope. In that way, people would know while he has Evil Is Cool moments, he is still someone meant to be depised. What do you think about it?

I didn't know stuff like Evil is Cool, Laughably Evil, and complexity can disqualify something from being Hate Sink. If that's the case I think the entire Ace Attorney series could have an examination given that there's a ton of villains who are fan favourites for their intended charisma and enjoyability as well as characterization, more than Frollo that have Hate Sink in their entry. Dahlia is a standout.