During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
The Bride and Beau Teague.
If someone can find an Inu pic that would be dope but I acknowledge it may be tough.
So, two I wanna get going today. The first is my last or second to last from Lucifer for the moment: King Solomon.
Who is King Solomon?
The Judge. Solomon was once a great kind imbued by God with the power to adjudge others. Given immortality, Solomon carries on in the world by punishing sinners ruthlessly. He first becomes aware of the heroes in an early conflict, but Solomon remains tangential to the plot, being only somewhat helpful or a hindrance until as a lead up to the final arc.
Now, the first arc of Lucifer involves a man named Jayesh, a gay Indian young man living in Germany who is deeply in love with his friend Karl. Karl, however, has fallen in with a group of Neo Nazis and when Jayesh shyly asks Karl on a date, Karl's realization he loves Jayesh too makes him react in disgust and he betrays Jayesh to the Nazis, who brutally beat him and have Karl sodomize an unconscious Jayesh with a broken bottle. A horrified, guilt-stricken Karl calls an ambulance when he can, and Jayesh has no memory of the event, believing Karl saved his life. Years later, Jayesh will never walk again and he and Karl are a couple (the Neo-Nazis are killed in the arc)
Solomon is on the trail of several people: a mobster, a crooked politician, and a dirty cop. Opening the issue, Solomon reflects on the sinners he has punished: a Swiss Banker selling treasures stolen from Holocaust victims is sealed within his own vault. A pharmacologist who suppressed dangerous data on a new drug is injected with the substance by Solomon, a war criminal he drives to suicide.
Solomon approaches the cop, Liebert, who once pushed bad junk and in the ensuing conflict, kids were murdered. Solomon sends him to set up a meeting with the mobster and the politician while Solomon visits Karl and furiously denounces him. "Gunter gave you a broken bottle. Told you to prove yourself. And you did, Karl. Dispelled all possibility of doubt or ambiguity." Solomon says Karl will kill a man for him. "Or I'll tell Jayesh what he really has to thank you for." The plan?
Karl will kill Liebert the cop. The cops will arrive and arrest the mob boss and the politician's name will be ruined. All of them will suffer retribution. This plan only fails by the intervention of an angel, Meleos, who tells Liebert he has a choice.
Karl arrives and Liebert disarms him, saying "Good. It's about time someone did." And aims the gun at the mobster, with Karl fleeing the scene. Liebert kills the mobster and is gunned down while Solomon is annoyed at the interference and moves to finish Karl before Meleos interrupts him as Solomon is needed in heaven...to judge Christopher Rudd, whereupon Solomon pronounces him innocent and worthy of forgiveness, before asking to be returned to earth, feeling he has not earned heaven.
Karl? escapes, but finds a note from Solomon or Meleos: "He already knows. He has always known."
Ending as Karl returns to Jayesh as he sleeps and sobbing in guilt and remorse.
Mitigating issues?
No. Solomon is dignified, ruthless and utterly put together. He operates on a much smaller scale than, say, Lucifer or Rudd, but for a guy on the smallest of scales, Solomon sets 'em up and watches 'em fall. His plan to nail four targets of retribution at once and barring literal divine intervention, it works. Solomon gets everything he's going for and would've seen Karl dead if not for Meleos there.
Now, Solomon proves Good Is Not Nice. His punishments are brutal and he doesn't really care about Karl being genuinely remorseful, nor Liebert. He's far too brutal for a mere hero here. He is, however, truly devout and dedicated to his own notion of justice.
Conclusion?
easy keeper.
Big yes to Solomon there!
Now for Inu I get if we feel this is a little too symbolic but I do kinda like this quote combined with Riku snagging the pearls:
Edited by 43110 on Apr 30th 2022 at 5:02:45 AM
to Beau Teague and King Solomon.
The Wise One.
Yes to King Solomon. Not really feeling the pic.
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Ehhhh ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
for the Inu pic.
Also damn, completely glossed over that EP. My bad. for King Solomon.
Edited by Tyk5919 on Apr 30th 2022 at 5:21:10 AM
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
As I said, might be a tough one to make... no one is really the stereotypical "commander" type that seem easier to find images for.
On that note though I would like to also suggest this one for Anime & Manga because it really gives off the show of control Asano has over his students as Assassination Classroom was so fantastic with its visual effects:
If someone wants to pair that with a quote I'd be down as well.
Edited by 43110 on Apr 30th 2022 at 5:30:40 AM
Lies and Violence!
to the Bride, Teague, Solomon, and the second image.
What's the work?
Another for A Practical Guide to Evil. This one I briefly thought of before but dismissed out of hand as a joke candidate. Upon rereading the series, however, he actually works better than I would have thought.
Basic premise, in case you forgot: the world here literally runs on stories and general fantasy tropes. The evil Dread Empire of Praes has conquered The Good Kingdom of Callow, and Catherine Foundling, an orphan from the latter, is recruited to become the Squire of the feared Black Knight. She forms her own army from the up-and-coming generation of Praesi soldiers, and the conflict quickly escalates into an all-out war against an ancient lich king.
Who is Robber, Lord of the Lesser Footrest? Just go with it
So, quick explanation on goblins: goblin tribes are incredibly secretive societies nominally part of the Dread Empire, run by a cutthroat matriarchy. They take secrecy to the next level, as their very language is apparently rewritten every few decades to screw with any outsiders trying to translate their dialect. They're also all incredibly murder-happy.
Robber is a goblin from the Rock Breaker tribe who desired to escape the claustrophobic underground of the Grey Eyries and the matrons' iron grip by joining the Dread Empire's Imperial War College. Fortunately, the Rock Breakers were allocated three reserved seats at the school for their finest goblins. Unfortunately, nine others also wanted out, and that's when the murder started.
Robber managed to kill two, slaying one in an honor duel and pushing another down a mine shaft when no one was looking. However, he soon became disgusted by the tribe matron's approval of his ruthlessness and, desiring to be more than just a petty pawn whose struggles to survive served only to amuse his supposed "betters," invited the remaining contenders for the War College to settle their conflict through a card game. Robber won — by cheating better than everyone else, of course.
It was the Matron who decided it. She walked into the cave, took one look at him and spat. You scheming old witches, can't you see he's heard the wind? she'd said. You're the Tower's now, boy. Go die in a gutter for the Empress. And so at seven years old they'd sent him to Ater and the War College, to learn the trade of war.
Oh, goblins have wonky lifespans too. Anyway, part of the college includes war games between companies of students, so Robber joined Rat Company as a sapper (engineer/demolitions specialist/scout) and quickly made a name for himself as a mischievous little shit of a prankster. When Cat joins up, he becomes the primary source of comic relief, doing stuff like naming her undead suicide bomber goats (don't ask), arranging massive plays that are basically just elaborate insults to her enemies, and spreading absurdly untrue rumors about her feats that quickly become Common Knowledge. As they graduate from the War College and go into actual war, however, Robber proves to be utterly ruthless and efficient when he needs to be, even killing prisoners when under attack. He's still hilarious, of course.
"KILL THEM, TAKE THEIR STUFF!" the call came back.
Robber faked wiping a tear from the corner of his eye. Considering goblins didn't even have tear ducts, the absurdity was delightful.
"Go forth, my minions!" he cackled.
That actually does become their army's slogan, much to Cat's exasperation. It becomes a Running Gag for her to threaten to demote him to her Official Footrest for his shenanigans, then Lesser Footrest, then Lesser Lesser Footrest. He fluctuates between getting demoted and promoted to those last two for the rest of the series, and takes his "esteemed" title with honor.
Anyway, during this time Cat gets into a bit of a rivalry with a Praesi noble named Akua Sahelian, who keeps trying to blatantly assassinate her but manages to play her politics well enough that even Black can't get permission from the Dread Empress to "dispose" of her. After one particularly egregious attempt — releasing a demon on an entire city, which btw Robber helped to kill by corralling its devil minions into an alleyway filled with bombs — Cat decides to get a bit petty and assigns Robber to harass her: killing beasts of burden, poisoning food and water, knifing any soldier in her employ who's alone for even a second, burning down her mansion, etc. "If they so much as stack two stones on top of each other, I want them pushed down and on fire."
This assignment quickly becomes a permanent position as Robber leads his sappers in increasingly insane and suicidal missions against whomever Cat wants to make a point to at any given moment, always somehow managing to survive and keep his casualties to an impressive minimum. Now a "Special" Tribune, Robber notably manages to sneak into Akua's heavily defended fortress to get intel on her master plan (after spending a few months ambushing and murdering entire caravans of allies coming to lend aid to the noble), captures the leaders of the local criminal gangs so they can be forced to swear allegiance to Cat, somehow manages to capture a fae soldier during Arcadia's invasion, and gleefully pledges his loyalty when Cat decides to betray the Empire. Once Akua is finally killed — which he played an integral role in, helping Cat and Black navigate her lair — he remains an efficient and deadly scout throughout the conflicts with both the Tenth Crusade and the Dead King. And speaking of the latter...
After a particularly disastrous battle that sees Cat's forces about to be swarmed by the undead, the Grey Pilgrim sacrifices himself by calling down a star to wipe out the Dead King's hordes. Unfortunately, that's still not enough to stop the lich's assault. He has a giant walking war machine called a "crab" — half moving city, half weapons factory, and heavily defended with magical wards to the point where even a meteor called down by the angels themselves wouldn't be able to breach it. The Pilgrim needs someone to sneak in and blow it up from the inside. In other words, a suicide mission.
Robber's mad lads gladly step forward.
After a bit of stabbing and running for his life as the rest of his troops are slowly whittled down/kamikaze themselves, Robber sits alone in the middle of the crab with a bag full of explosives, and, whilst thinking about how his years with the Army of Callow have been the best of his entire life, reads a letter given to him by Cat.
Robber's throat closed as he traced the words with a trembling finger.
"The best," he whispered.
He struck the match, the parchment taking fire, and with a wide grin he plunged the burning scroll into the bag. He closed his eyes, feeling the burst of fire wash over him, but it didn't hurt at all. He thought, somehow, that even in this deep place he was hearing something.
Robber died hearing the wind.
Is he magnificent?
Weirdly enough, yes. When not being a delightfully obnoxious troll, Robber is incredibly competent as a commander: his POV almost instantaneously alternates between Comedic Sociopathy and deadly seriousness, thinking about stabbing a whiny noble with his "murder knife" (not a regular knife, don't ask) one second and trying to figure out how to get his men out of their current clusterfuck alive the next.
Once again, he's not a big political schemer or chessmaster, but he's a competent and loyal scout given a lot of free room to plan when it comes to executing Cat's petty responses to rivals, and he lasts a surprisingly long time as the head of her suicide mission sappers. His death ultimately comes when he goes up against a walking castle designed by the oldest, most intelligent mind alive to be a complete death trap, and he and his minions charge into that certain doom with wholehearted glee.
Is he a bastard?
Is willing to execute prisoners, every other sentence out of his mouth in some way involves murder... yeah, I think we're good here.
"They're coming along nicely," Robber said. "They don't even scream anymore when they wake up with a knife to the throat in the middle of the night."
"Don't break my mages, Robber," I sighed. "You know we don't have any to spare."
"You do me grave injustice," he mourned. "I'm teaching them important life lessons, like 'crying never helps' and 'sleeping deep is sleeping dead.'"
"You're not getting new ones if you screw these ones up," I warned him. "There's nothing left from the Hedge Guild to draft."
"It's my Gods-given duty to educate tender-hearted Callowans like them," he righteously told me. "Speaking of, I heard this thing about northerners. Is it true they-"
"Every single joke about northerners and sheep has also been made about goblins and goats," I warned him.
"Calumny," he protested. "That hardly ever happens unless the goat is shaved and painted green."
Final verdict?
Goddamnit, they made me cry because of a stupid Human Doorstop joke. I love this book. Keeper.
Yes to Robber and honestly for Gakuhou, I'm thinking something like "Academics or athletics: the fear and respect Gakuhou Asano commands see his students bring their A-game for anything."
to Robber, Bride, Teague, Solomon, and the Asano image and caption, especially since I got Asano up in the first place
Edited by G-Editor on Apr 30th 2022 at 12:14:49 AM
Yes to Robber. The pic & caption look good; I recommend putting them through the Image Suggestion Thread.
Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on Apr 30th 2022 at 6:20:33 AM
Ultimate Moral Compass
Kiddo, Solomon, and the Robber
to Robber, Bride, Teague, Solomon, and the Asano image and caption
Edited by MiraiYuji on Apr 30th 2022 at 12:45:36 PM
Yes to the Robber and Solomon, damn... I wonder if we'll ever have another version of another agent of God (Van Helsing) beyond the one from... well Hellsing to count.
Solomon and Robber.
Melinda we have several approved candidates who are defeated by something they couldn't have possibly seen coming. I was honestly to hasty in abstaining on Teague.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Posted on Guma's linked thread btw for those who liked the Gakuhou pic!
Cool beans. If enough people upvote it the next crowner, it’ll be added.
The Moron
@43: It's funny you mentioned Inuyasha - I got a few on my first go-around, and then you went in and swept up the rest ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
That page should be good to lock and the rest of the drafts should be good whenever you're ready!
Yeah didn’t wanna make you do too much and given my firsthand knowledge there I figured I could be of use, talentless as I’ll admit I generally am at potholing lol
The Moron
For what it's worth you picked some good ones - better than the ones I would've picked looking at the character sheets lol
Yeah I realized how some (hi Tree of Ages) were a little sparse to be able to use!
The Moron
As for Alien vs. Predator, I wanted to find a good quote about the OG Predator. The only real good one I could find was this:
Anna: <It was... I don't know.>
Poncho: <Tell me, woman!>
Anna: <I don't know it was. The jungle, the jungle took him.>
Poncho: <What?>
Anna: <I don't know, I'm not sure. I don't know.>
Poncho: She says the jungle... it just came alive and took him.
Or maybe this?
Billy: Strange, Major. There was a firefight. They were shooting in all directions.
Dutch: I can't believe Hopper walked into an ambush.
Billy: I don't believe he did. I can't find a single track. It just doesn't make sense...
Dutch: What about the rest of Hopper's men?
Billy: There's no sign, sir. They never left here. It's like they just disappeared...
Eh, not really wedded to either one, but at least they sound cool so I might as well ask.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Apr 30th 2022 at 9:39:35 AM
to The Bride/Beatrice and the Assassination Classroom image. The former is an awesome antihero no doubt.
Edited by Idisagree on Apr 30th 2022 at 6:15:58 AM
