During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Captain Chevalier
@Wet Flannels: Being comedic hasn't stopped characters like Gruntilda the witch, Fawful and some incarnations of Bowser and Eggman. I say go for it!
for Cowler, Riku, and Chevalier.
Welcome back, 43.
Riku and Chevalier
On Gordo from The Gift (2015):
TL;DR: some dude Gordo stalks his old bully Simon and maybe kinda sorta rapes Simon's wife Robyn.
Personally, I think the revenge plot seems a little bit harsh and Gordo is creepy and weird rather than charming, but my main point is the rape.
Despite what the troper who EP'd this claimed, Edgerton has not explicitly denied that Gordo raped Robyn in part of his revenge scheme. I searched the web and for the love of God couldn't find an article. In fact, Edgerton cut the original ending, in which Gordo was explictly shown not to rape Robyn, to make it more ambiguous, so it's basically non-canon.
Also, the Revenge by Proxy rape scare plot point just feels pretty gross and tacky.
Multiple news outlets with varying degrees of credibility bring this up.
So I personally think we should cut.
On a lighter note, any chance that any of the Hans Grubers from Die Hard's old scripts can count as MBs?
Edited by HighfalutinQuelea on Apr 20th 2022 at 4:17:51 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
Definite no to either of the script Hanses, they are both too vicious and smug compared to the Film version to make it.
The Film version is one of the most horrifically charismatic and intelligent antagonists in cinema, but not so much in the scripts.
As for Gordo, I'll let someone more familiar address those points.
Sure to Chevalier.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Apr 20th 2022 at 7:37:32 AM
Showtime!
to Riku and Chevalier
Welcome back 43110!
Right with what I understand now, yes to this incarnation of Evolt (I was a bit wary before since Evolt is one of KR's absolute worst CM's) and Chevalier and oh boy did that video sell me on him. You're doing good work there delving into Tokusatsu to bring us the best of the best and the worst of the worst on our sister thread.
to Dr. Eggman, Evolt, Dregg, Andrew Scott, Valyx, Sir Cowler, Riku and Captain Chevalier.
Welcome back 43110.
Edited by MGD107 on Apr 20th 2022 at 5:26:08 AM
MY PSYCHIC SENSE IS TINGLING AGAIN! IT'S TELLING ME TO GO BACK TO THE BEGINNING, ABOUT SEASON 2'ISH. THERE'S SOMETHING THERE. SOMETHING ABOUT... MARY? MIRA?.
Sorry, where was I? Oh, Right - Psych, Season 2, Episode 11. Something about someone called Mira I guess. "There's Something About Mira"
Wait, the name is Jan. The candidate's name is Jan (an alias).
The Episode
The episode opens with Shawn realizing that he and Gus are being followed by a P.I. When the duo confront him, he tells them that his name is Mace Rhoden, and he was hired by Gus' wife, Mira Gaffney - much to Shawn's surprise and disappointment. Gus apparently met Mira in Mexico in 1997, and they got married on a drunken binge. Shawn insists on coming with Gus to meet her, which Gus agrees to.
The duo meet Mira at her family's winery (one of three) and she tells them she's getting married to someone named Jan, and she wants Gus to sign some documents to get their marriage annulled so that she can marry him. She invites the duo to the wedding, but Jan doesn't show up, leaving Mira devastated. Gus offers to help find Jan.
Mira shows the duo pictures of her and Jan, where Shawn notices an outdated prescription bottle for Clozapine in her purse. This leads him to conclude that Mira never met Jan, and made him up to get back at Gus. However, as he reveals this to everyone at the police station, Jan shows up in person looking for Mira, explaining that he was called away on business before the wedding and wasn't able to make it back on time.
While their case is wrapped up, Shawn is still suspicious because Jan showed up out of nowhere, and goes to his hotel to investigate further. However, he finds Mira there alone, so he confronts her about the photos. Mira tells him that she met Jan only recently, and she faked the photos so that her parents wouldn't think she was rushing into marriage again. Jan suggested faking the photos to give the impression that they were together longer.
Shawn and Gus also track down Jan at a golf course, and observe him arguing with Mace Rhoden. When they confront Jan, he tells them that his fight with Rhoden was related to expenses from tracking Gus down, as he was the one that hired the P.I. He also confesses that he wasn't on a business trip when he missed the wedding - he was actually ending another relationship that he was in, since Mira is the best thing that's ever happened to him and he doesn't want to lose that.
There is a side plot where Lassie and Jules are arguing about who's a better detective and the robbery of a refrigeration truck, but that's not important yet. What is important is Buzz telling them that Chief Vick needs them for an important case, and they run out to meet Shawn and Gus at Jan's hotel. Unfortunately, Jan's been murdered, with Shawn promptly suspecting Mace Rhoden.
Shawn then realizes that he was right initially about Jan not existing - He was a con man working with Mace and pulling a long con on Mira, planning on robbing the winery, and they needed a refrigeration truck to transport it. However, Jan genuinely fell for Mira and backed out of his "relationship" with Mace, leading to Mace killing him.
Magnificence and Bastardry
He is part of a two man team pulling a long con on Mira, with the intention of robbing her parents' winery. There is no indication that his plan was going poorly, and it only "failed" because he genuinely fell in love with her and didn't want to carry on with the con. This, unfortunately, gets him killed. He also came up with a plan to make Mira's parents think that they were together for longer than they had actually been
When Shawn and Gus confront him in the golf course, he talks to them politely, and even Mira finds him charming enough to not question him.
While Jan may not be the "final" Villain of the Week (that would be Mace), I think that he strikes the right balance of qualities to be deemed an MB.
Edited by magnumtropus on Apr 20th 2022 at 2:00:54 PM
He is indeed Polar, I'll let G address Gordo and the thing with Hans is 50% of the reason he counts is Rickman's performance!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Shoot, got distracted at work mid-post and a wild-EP appeared ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Yes there!
Edited by 43110 on Apr 20th 2022 at 9:02:03 AM
That's a yes. As for Gordo...I'm ultimately pretty okay keeping. The indication I've seen is he definitely doesn't rape her (and in fact he's shown in a deleted scene just sitting there compounds it).
Now, to welcome back 43, he and I have spoken about this guy from the show and ultimately, we'll see if the thread cuts him more slack than season 8. I give you Varys.
Who is Varys?
A eunuch from Lys, Varys is a plump, bald, effeminate man and the Master of Whispers on the Small Council. Varys was born a slave and joined an acting troupe, before he was taken in by a sorcerer in Myr. The sorcerer used him in a blood ritual, castrating him and throwing him on the streets to die. To spite him, Varys resolved to live and stole, prostituted himself and delved into information. He built a pickpocketing network and brought himself to the Seven Kingdoms. His skill was such that he ended up on the Small council as Master of Whispers or "The Spider." Varys claims to serve one thing: The Realm. When Brandon Stark challenged Prince Rhaegar, Varys urged the king to pardon him to no avail. His advice went roundly unheeded by the increasingly insane Aerys, including not to trust Tywin. Varys joined the reign of King Robert Baratheon.
Varys proceeds to develop a gentle and pushover persona, which few see through. One of his few rivals is Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish. Upon Eddard Stark's arrival, Varys gives him clandestine assistance while also conspiring with a magister named Illyrio to either eliminate or elevate Princess Daenerys across the sea, having made her knight Jorah his spy. After eddard is bested by Cersei, Varys visits him in prison to tell him how useless his honor is to the realm and convinces him to confess to treason for the sake of his daughters' safety. Unfortunately Joffrey as a petulant brat, has Stark executed. Varys is left to help hold things together with the few others trying, like Tyrion Lannister. When Tyrion successfully uses a scheme that pulls in Varys, the eunuch is just complimentary and helps to install Tyrion's lover Shae as a lover to the captive Sansa Stark, while also providing Tyrion with plans to resist the invading army of Stannis Baratheon.
Varys then heads to one of Littleifnger's prostitutes who's grown discontent with Baelish's callousness, a woman named Ros, to get her to spy on her employer. It's also here Varys uses his network to bring him the sorcerer who mutilated him, ready for some sweet payback. Seeking to undermine Littlefinger, he helps Olenna Tyrell to get Sansa from his grasp. Unfortunately, Littlefinger catches on to Ros and gives her to Joffrey to murder. Seeing Tyrion as the hope of the realm, he tries to bribe Shae to leave him, to no avail.
When Tyrion is accused of Joffrey's murder, varys mixes plans up, testifying against him, but saving him from his cell and directing him to Tywin's chambers where Tyrion kills his father. Escaping Kings Landing, he brings Tyrion across the sea and brings him to Daenerys's court, with assistance on governing after helping to connive more power for Dany. Varys brokers an alliance between Cersei's enemies and Dany, promising to deliver them "fire and blood." Unfortunately, dany goes downhill and Varys realizes the danger. He attempts to undermine Dany and make Jon king, but is betrayed by Tyrion.
Realizing his death is certain, Varys merely tells Tyrion he hopes he deserves his execution and he is wrong...forlorn, but resolute, Varys readies himself as Dany gives the order and her dragon Drogon incinerates him.
Varys's predictions turn out to be true and Dany snaps, prompting Tyrion to realize Varys was right and push Jon to kill Dany....while Tyrion himself is made Hand of the King to fix the realm, ironically fulfilling Varys's hopes for him.
Mitigating issues?
Okay, so...for most of the series? No, Varys is one of the single best players of the Game of Thrones. He's ruthless, but charming and pleasant. People underestimate the gentle, soft spoken eunuch at their peril. Varys has been running games since he was a young boy and runs them brilliantly in modern day. He plays a lot of people and while his game isn't perfect, it's telling he hangs with the best of them. Conleth Hill portrays him as a brilliant schemer who makes plan after plan, brokers alliances and...
Okay, the final season reduces Varys to mostly standing on the sidelines doing nothing until he tries a scheme to undermine Dany which isn't very well thought out...this is more on the writing, but ultimately...
Varys is absolutely right and justified to wnt to remove Dany. His only real option is Jon an the only person who brings his downfall is Tyrion, the only one who can. Still, he meets it resolute and calm, just saying he hopes he's wrong.
While Varys is undeniably not a good man (he's allowed some awful actions and committed plenty), he does care for the people he deems capable of helping the realm and his ultimate concern is for the common people. As he states, someone needs to care about the Realm.
Conclusion?
I'd say yes, in the end.
The Draftsman of Doom
Yes to Jan and Varys.
Jan.
Varys.
Regarding Gordo, I guess it depends on how kosher it is to use deleted scenes. I guess it only goes as far as clarifying something that's vague or implied in the final cut - I have such a candidate to get too myself. In this case, clarifying that Gordo isn't a rapist.
At the same time, I wouldn't want over rely on deleted scenes or cut content in these discussions, anymore than we would on the CM thread.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Yes to Varys... my main issues with him do indeed come down to the writing making him try to undermine Dany in the most blatantly obvious ways and my general issues with his apparent omniscience— he and Sansa somehow just know Daenerys is going to snap, and keep saying it as basically the only foreshadowing, even though Daenerys isn't acting any differently than usual— but honestly, I'm willing to give it a pass because it feels unfair to keep an otherwise solid candidate off the list thanks to that season's godawful writing.
Yes to Chevalier, Jan, and Varys.
Riku, Jans, Vays, and Chevalier.
Welcome back, 43!
Ultimate Moral Compass
Welcome back 43!
Riku, Chevalier, Jan, and Varys
Easy to Varys. Yeah, as I've said before, I don't have the same complaints others do about Season 8–or at least I don't revile it FOR those issues. I acknowledge though that six episodes was not enough to do all that and make it feel as natural as it could be.
Will he be the last of the show keepers by the way?
Also @Lore and @G, if one of you wants to try to do Michael Morbius, by all means go ahead.
It's really not the greatest end (thanks writers!) but he trusted Tyrion, who genuinely struggles with telling Dany—and later immensely regrets doing so—but Varys made the decision he thought was best for the realm and was willing to lay his life for the risk, even if he's clearly terrified he doesn't scream at his painful execution and otherwise plays his role quite well. It's controversial and definitely how not to write an MB but I'm a yes.
Good to have you back, 43.
to Varys.
Yes to Riku, Chevalier, Jan, and Varys. Do you still plan on doing the easier book version of Varys? I believe I've heard you say you'd go ahead after doing book Euron for CM.
Anyway, I got Runescape discussion to be had for two characters since the grand finale to the current story arc ended two weeks ago and these two characters more or less had their stories ended. The first is simply an obvious expansion to perhaps the game's easiest keeper. The second might need some discussion as they went from teetering on the bastard line to blowing past the Moral Event Horizon and so we gotta decided if that one act is too bad for them to continue qualifying.
Here's a summation of the story arc and all what I've gone over in older Runescape effort posts. The eldritch Elder Gods are on the verge of being reborn and consuming all life on the world of Gielinor as they emerge from their eggs. The elves' goddess Seren at first tries to appease them and have them spare mortal life, but the dragonkin Kerapac undermines everything we he tries to drown the whole world in shadow anima to kill the Elders. This would also destroy the world but will spare the rest on the universe from the Elders reordering it after the awaken. Kerapac is defeated and again enslaved by the Elder God Jas, but this plot predictably makes them mad. The player and few other allies try to hide the eggs far away, but the Elders send their forces after them. Seren recruits others gods and their mortal armies to fight back their forces while the gods drain the eggs of anima and keep them from being reborn.
Getting into the finale, the situation gets desperate enough that the other gods try to destroy the eggs outright and Seren decides she doesn't want to do that. She teleports them away with her and so begins the world hopping adventure to search for her. Now on to the easier of candidates. (Note I'll be linking the EP's below if you're interested in reviewing them, but I apologize for their length. I've worked to make mine shorter since then.)
Kerapac enters the finale still enslaved by Jas, but slowly but surely breaks her control through sheer force of will. Note that this is one of the creator gods of the setting. Kerapac follows the player and their group to various worlds trying to retrieve the eggs for Jas, until he finally breaks free when they finally find Seren and the eggs on her birth world of Freneskae. At this point, Kerapac fully breaks free and singlehandedly holds off Jas using the power of the time bending Elder Needle, while sending the player to the Shadow Realm of Erebus to find something to stop her. The player succeeds at bringing a shadow leviathan to the rift in reality that grabs Jas. Using the last of his power, Kerapac weakens her enough for her to be pulled into Erebus, finally avenging the eons of torturous enslavement she put his people through. Kerapac is pulled in with her, but leaves behind an echo that says he is happy with his doom as long as he gets to see Jas suffering alongside him. Kerapac just needs a small expansion to his current write up.
Seren reaches the inevitable conclusion of such an ancient being's search for a true family to call her own. When the elves and other mortals proved unsatisfactory, she latched on the Elder Gods instead, as her creator and mother Mah was one of them. She also transitions fully from Light Is Good to Light Is Not Good in the finale. One earlier part of story arc had her try to use an artifact to keep the other gods and their followers perpetually revitalized to keep up their stalemate with the Elders forever, as she didn't want the Eggs destroyed. This reveal leads to Chaos God Zamorak abandoning the plan in disgust, leading in turn to the finale where the others resort to destroying the eggs without his contribution. Seren teleports them away to keep her new family safe, but a shadow breach opens up over Freneskae which Kerapac uses the destroy Jas.
The player and their allies discuss with Seren on what to do, but she refuses to let the Elders die and so makes her transition over the MEH. She travels to the world of Iaia to sacrifice it to awaken the eggs. The choice is cold and calculated but still within a measure of morality for her. The Illujanka of Iaia are on the verge of extinction due to infertility and have come to terms with their end, so Seren decides this is a fair alternative to letting Gielinor or some other world die. The player and allies try to evacuate as many as they can while Seren tries to kill the player for trying to stop her. The remaining 3 Elders eventually hatch and consume all life on the planet. The player gets left behind, but they are spared for being drenched in shadow anima. One last conversation with Seren shows that she will care for and guide the newborns and keep them on the dead world, as being born outside the "perfect" Gielinor has left them weak. Finally with her perfect family, Seren is content to stay on the dead world protecting the newborns from the universe and protecting the universe from them.
The question here is if her act of sacrificing a world puts Seren over the line for this trope, and I don't think so. As cold as it was, she reasoned Iaia was the least cruel world to sacrifice and didn't do any of it out of true malice. She even tries to give the player and allies time to evacuate as many as they can, but in the end her motives were entirely selfish. She furthermore doesn't desire to cause anymore harm, but she also certainly can't be called good anymore. I'm thinking a small expansion to her write up as well, with a maybe a slight rewording to keep it from being too long.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
I'll abstain on Varys, it was a very stupid scheme in the end. As usual no problem if he goes up.
I'll also abstain on Jan. His end seems somewhat ignominious.
Chevalier though.
As for Gordo I agree with Beast, with the caveat we do use Word of God/Deleted Scenes for things leaning towards an interpretation. I will say this is one reason that MB is YMMV. I don't think it's wrong if you interpret it is as Gordo did rape her, but the film leaves it ambiguous, and most supplementary material lean towards he didn't so I support keeping him up.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
I'm going to have to abstain on Varys as well, namely for the discrepancy between his pre-season 8 self, a puppeteer who keeps himself out of the fray and prefers the least risky and most pragmatic option possible, and season 8 self, who makes several risky gambles that cost him his life. Namely: not removing himself from Dany's castle while plotting to assassinate her, not taking steps to better cover up his treachery, and not being concerned when his assassin tells him she's being spied on by Dany's guards or that she's not eating the poisoned food Varys is feeding her. If we're willing to excuse all that as bad writing rather though I would have to him.
Varys
Aside from that one deleted scene, what other supplementary material shows that Gordo didn't rape Robyn? It's a little thin, I think.
It just rubs me off the wrong way. Maybe it's because Gordo's not as ambitious or glamorous as most other MBs, maybe it's because it's about rape.
