During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Also @ Doc, … Emet? Don’t recall, I tend to assume things will be moved and when people forget to draft them I usually hear about it shortly after submitting the batch. Regardless, thanks!
I hate spoilers
Does anyone feel like the main page quote on Magnificent Bastard isn't quite indicative of the trope? All it does is mention the trope namer. Would this work?
Professor Gigachad
I will just Abstain on Bronn since I don't really know what to think.
I mean I am wondering what would warrant a special entry length as I have always been under the idea that length is based on how much stuff a character does.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
Caesar
I think I'm good for Bronn, I absolutely see where J is coming from and almost feel the same, but I'm willing to give Bronn the slightest benefit of the doubt given how easy it would be for the narrative to establish him as a rapist and/or supporter of rape otherwise VS just threatening someone who had been working against him to scare her off.
Yes to Crocker too, great work, k410!
As for the page quote, I like the quote as is, but the mention of Korra actually reminds me to ask the thread, something I've been considering...
Might be a bit of a stretch, but we ever considered Toph from Avatar: The Last Airbender as a potential? She's undeniably a badass fighter and laidback strategist in both the OG series and Korra, and as for bastard credentials...she is a con woman who ranges from cheating at perfectly legitimate circus games to win bets, all the way to tricking an (admittedly possibly scummy) aristocrat that his cart had ran her over and killed her so as to then blackmail money out of him to keep it quiet, and in an earlier episode she sat idly by while Sokka was in genuine, major danger of a Sabre-tooth moose lion just so she could observe how Aang handled the situation, the event happening before she considered the group real, close friends and was having fun screwing around with them.
By the time of Korra, she's a total cynic who gleefully brutalizes Korra under guise of training and is established as not having been a good mother to her kids at all, yet in one notable instance used her authority as a cop to destroy the arrest warrant for one of her daughters even though she broke the law and by all rights was on her way to jail.
She's a hero for sure, but of the Gaang...she might be pushing out enough sketchy morality to pass.
Thoughts on this idea? Curious what we think, would love to propose my fave member of the Gaang but she's naturally in a lot of content so before I slap up a big ol' effortpost, curious to see what others who have watched the show(s) think, if she's maybe worth the effort. If y'all ain't feeling it though, just say so!
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Sorry, to make it clear I meant I like the current Patton one just for arguably codifying the trope name to popularity, but that's just me.
Edited by Ravok on Feb 16th 2022 at 11:37:38 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Which quote, the current one on the page or the Korra one?
Lizzid people!
I'd say go for it. Sounds fun.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Sure to Bronn.
Toph... Hmm. I could see it personally. Especially by the time of Korra. Then again, for what's worth, I might just be biased in wanting my favorite character from the franchise on this trope.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Yes to Bronn. I feel the rape was a bluff and in the Martinverse, (That's what I'm calling it) rape and threats of it are fairly common from what I understand. So this is potatoes compared to the MV CM page.
Also I'd honestly be against Toph, but that's just me.
I'm off for the night. I plan on doing Olenna Tyrell from the books tomorrow. I imagine she'll be fun to talk about as well. Saying her original incarnation is the more cantankerous is an understatement.
I could go either way on Toph for now, and I'll wait for a full EP.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Feb 16th 2022 at 10:54:32 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
I feel like Toph was too emotionally immature during the con artist stint. The episode explicitly draws paralels to a kid lashing out against a parent (Katara serving as the parental figure) and in the end, it backfires horribly on her.
As for what she does in Korra, maybe, but I'm not sure if that's enough of the bastard mark. Yeah she took advantage of her authority in that one instance, but I don't think "protecting my daughter from jail" is that much of a line. And I think brutalizing Korra is a massive stretch. She curb stomped her while sparring.
Edited by Awesomekid42 on Feb 17th 2022 at 12:14:24 PM
Caesar
I'd have to disagree on it being purely emotional immaturity, Toph establishes herself as less than moral throughout the series in other stints (again I draw attention to literally using Sokka in danger as bait to test Aang's skills and laughing off Aang's outrage at her just sitting on her ass while Sokka nearly died), and that episode just served as the grandest showing of her con artist skills, which she does masterfully. It's also Katara's fault the plan backfires since she's the one who comes up with the "one last job" ploy that gets them in trouble with Combustion Man, and that's after Toph had already ripped off plenty of people and pulled successful cons without issue. Toph goes along with it, sure, but Katara came up with the plan and they had zero way of knowing someone as smart as Combustion Man had found his way to the area they were in, and they pretty quickly escape capture anyway.
Granted on the fighting Korra bit, but I do think Lin's attitude about Toph literally taking advantage of her position of authority to erase her delinquent daughter's crimes to keep her out of jail does present it as firmly in the immoral camp, personally. Coupled with Toph becoming a cynical hermit who cheerfully acknowledges that Republic City could have used her help for years but she just was too apathetic to assist... again I totally welcome opinions like these so as to get a feel for folks' thoughts who have seen the show, and if enough people feel the same I'll set that one aside without a proposal, but I think there's enough to at least warrant a preliminary discussion.
Edited by Ravok on Feb 16th 2022 at 10:58:22 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Well if Toph is approved anyone think Sonic the Hedgehog Game!Rouge the bat has a shot? We have Sonic X Rouge but I think she's equally intelligent in the games and is one of the few things I like about Shadow the Hedgehog (the game) and Sonic 2006.
Edited by Klavice on Feb 16th 2022 at 11:06:49 AM
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Bronn
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Aye to Bronn.
I recently rewatched ATLA and was considering Toph myself, ngl. I can help with the EP. 🚶🏾♂️
@43110 Got it, I'll trim these later.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Feb 16th 2022 at 8:22:46 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Bronn
Seeing as my last attempt,the child killing Omnicidal Maniac failed how about a more basic but more grounded attempt?
What is the work
Broken Sword is a series of Point-and-Click games where you follow George Stobbart and Nico Collard in a bunch of expansive adventures. In the first one I already had the resident Big Bad up as a Complete Monster but what about his main problem in an Evil vs. Evil way Khan?
Who is Khan?
Khan is a member of the Hashashin, an order of Assassins who stood against the Knight Templars in ancient times and is trying to stop the Neo Templars from using the power of Baphomet to rule the world. Prior to the games story, Khan killed a few of their members (who are shown to be powerfully influential people), disguising himself in a costume each time to avoid detection by the media. In the Director's cut of the game, Khan uses a mime costume (he's in France) and kills Pierre Carchon, another powerful figure in France who had ties to the Neo Templars.
In the game proper, Khan disguises himself as a clown and blows up a café George is at, killing an old man called Plantard and stealing his briefcase. Following clues, you find out he's using false identities such as Thomas Moerlin to help him avoid detection. Later in Ireland, Khan runs over a young adult named Seamus to claim the jewel he had since another on the Templar's operatives Peagram had found it (it's implied that Khan killed him as well), this time dressed as a pixie. Because the jewel had fallen out of Seamus' pocket, Khan took him to find out where it went.
Much later in Syria, Khan ambushes George at Bull's head and questions him about what he found before going to kill him. George uses a hand buzzer to stun him and escape.
Khan is finally encountered on the train journey to the game's climax, disguised as an old lady where he ends up being fatally shot by a member of the Templar's called Eklund but not before taking out one of their stooges Flap and whacking him off the train. Khan speaks with George, admitting they were on the same side and imparts some wisdom about the Templars and Baphomet before expiring. Even posthumously Khan helped the heroes because in his handbag, which Nico was given was a bunch of C4, helping them in the end to detonate the church.
Are they Magnificent?
Well Khan's a one-man army (there's no indicators of any other assassins) against a corrupt organisation spanning dozens of powerful influential figures and has successfully picked off multiple of their members. Him getting buzzed by George? only because he accepted George's request of shaking his hand before being shot.He then made his way back from the Syrian wilderness alone with no resources. Him on the train journey, it's obvious he was on there with the intent on levelling the church to stop the Templar's from using Baphomet.
Are they a Bastard?
Well he blew up a café with George outside and a waitress in it to claim a briefcase off Plantard, albeit they both survive. He also ran over Seamus who is seemingly innocent so there's some unscrupulous characteristics with him. However he's shown to be civil with George, even offering him a handshake before he kills him(which lead to the buzzer incident,) and was shown fighting Flap on the train before Eklund shot him when him and Nico was taken. When Khan had killed Pierre, Nico ran into the room but instead of killing her, he only knocked her out even though he had the means to.
Final Thoughts?
Leaning a overall. Thoughts?
Edited by WetFlannels on Feb 16th 2022 at 7:44:51 PM
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Pink, Croker, Jack, Bronn and Khan
Goku Black
Khan.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Yes to Khan.
@43110 Edited my post to trim them to 173 and 197 words respectively. Should I trim more or we're good?
Thought you could use that tally for Bronn :
: LoreDeluxe 43110, Lightysnake, Riley1sCool, k410ren, G-Editor, 227someguy, Ravok, miraculous, myself , WetFlannels, DemonDuckofDoom, Snoketrope
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
: jjj2, Libraryseraph,
Abstain : Ordeaux26, myself, Polar Phantom
EDIT : I've personally switched to an abstain for Bronn.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Feb 17th 2022 at 3:25:18 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Yes to Khan, but I really, sincerely don't think Toph is bad enough. There's a certain threshold I think outright heroes need to pass to qualify for morally ambiguous; petty con artistry, apathy and cynicism aren't qualifying that for me because Toph never intends serious harm, which is a major line separating "Guile Hero" from "Magnificent Bastard."
I turned down both the 2014 version of Robert McCall and Harmonica from Once Upon a Time in the West (the latter was shot down twice) for not being morally sketchy enough, even though these two each had a sequence of torturing people—unabashed bad guys, but torture nonetheless. We turned down Sly Cooper for being a sanitized Gentleman Thief when the GT is already on the lower end of "bastard."
Toph can really be a little turd sometimes, particularly after she grows up, but she's still fundamentally an entirely good person. I don't think she clears the bar for "bastard" and I don't think what negative traits she does have are really that magnificent anyway.
KHAAAAAAAAAN!
I remember playing lots of this Broken Sword demo for PS 1. I should really revisit those games.
I'm... hm. Bronn is tricky. I'll abstain if only because I haven't read the books myself. If the books are ever finished then we can re-evaluate him. Though I won't lie, us not having "first hand" knowledge of the threat does make me happier to see him listed. But the crime is so vile, even the possibility of it makes me wary.
Yes to Khan, thanks for both the trims and tallying votes Georgie!
Barb / Temporary Kylo
to Bronn
I could see an EP for Toph atleast, it could be a Fun talk.
The First man
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Two questions
Is the voting system the same as the CM thread (5 1)
And is there someone that deals with the drafts like ACW does for CM?
Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
Yeah sure I’m fine giving Bronn a![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")