During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
It's a stunning image, but it's mostly making me wonder why Vincent seems to want to sign up for green goblin training. Although yes I guess it could work with one of the bombs exploding.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I saw some of it once, never finished it for some reason... I will be sure to finish it at some point in the future.
Edited by jjjj2 on Oct 26th 2021 at 10:04:30 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Oh man it gets better, he dresses up in a costume for a disguise earlier with a warlock like hat for full Halloween effect. 100% rec the movie cuz I know you’re a fan of the show!
RIP Toriyama
How're either of these potentials?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I like the first one.
I really love both bro! Going to leave it up to the thread but count me as a 'positive' vote for choices 1 and 2 haha
Like the first a little better.
The wifi here sucks
Mmmmm.
Maybe with a good caption that would work, but for me it's looking more like a CM image right now.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Imhotep, Melchior, and Okada. Echoing pap on the image. I don't think IP would let this one through as is.
Haven’t seen the movie. It’s on my bucket list. What’s a good quote from the scene/character?
Lies and Violence!
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Melchior.
With Ravok's permission:
The Spectacular Spider-Man is a... uh... spectacular show focusing on everyone's favorite wall-crawler. While generally sticking close to the Broad Strokes of the original comics, the show wasn't afraid to put their own twist on things. For instance, Tombstone was basically the Kingpin, Black Cat's dad killed Uncle Ben, and two B-List villains were combined into a total badass.
The Candidate
Montana is the head of "The Enforcers," a group of criminal mercenaries-for-hire in the employ of Tombstone. Hired to kill Spider-Man, the Enforcers monitor Norman Osborn's penthouse (due to shenanigans, the Vulture wants to kill him) and ambush Spidey with a goddamn helicopter when he begins his rematch with Toomes. Peter, of course, beats two of them and takes down the helicopter, but Montana gets away while he's busy dealing with Vulture.
Montana later steals an entire goddamn armored car to retrieve these cool shockwave-gauntlet things for Tombstone... only to learn from Hammerhead (Tombstone's Dragon) that the gauntlets are for him.
The newly christened "Shocker" has two crooks, Flint Marko and Alex O'Hirn (pre-supervillain versions of Sandman and Rhino) lure Spidey to a garbage dump, where he once again ambushes the "bug." Shocker beats the living shit out of Spidey and dumps him into a trash compactor — the only reason Peter survives is because there was a refrigerator he could hide in. Because apparently that works.
Shocker goes to relax at his bar — apparently he has a bar — before Hammerhead comes by to tell him he failed. He causes a bunch of "earthquakes" as breadcrumbs for Spidey, luring him to an abandoned theater. Peter, of course, quips at him, annoying Shocker so much that he's tricked into collapsing the theater on top of himself.
In prison, he and the Enforcers participate in Otto Octavius' breakout. Hammerhead gives them their tech back and takes Fancy Dan and Ox with him, while Shocker joins Doctor Octopus' Sinister Six. They, of course, beat the living daylight out of Spidey before the Venom symbiote comes to life and thrashes them in the rematch, though Shocker surprisingly lasts long enough to be the second-to-last taken out (behind Otto himself).
Somehow breaking out of prison again, Shocker reunites with the Enforcers, who have recently been turned into supervillains. Tombstone hires them to rob a gold depository, which they get started on... by robbing a completely different bank. Turns out, it was a misdirect — what they were actually stealing were Federal Reserve uniforms from the dry cleaners next door, which they use to sneak into said Reserve under the pretense of delivering a new shipment of gold.
Said "gold" is apparently just a plastic covering on top of a cart hiding their costumes. Shocker sabotages the elevator kill switch and destroys the elevator itself, leaving them all alone with the gold... 86 feet underground. The police think they're trapped, but Shocker blasts through the wall to reveal a subway car Tombstone arranged to be there for their escape. They also hacked into the cameras, so they see Spidey climbing down and meet him halfway.
Burying the bug under a mountain of gold bricks, Shocker orders the Enforcers to leave with the haul they got — sure, they could stick around to get a few more bricks, but best to not chance it. Nevertheless, Spidey catches up to the train car, and the Enforcers give him a brutal thrashing before he crashes the train with the gold cart. They try to grab as much of the gold as they can before beating a hasty retreat, climbing up from a sewer grate to get to their armored getaway car.
...Unfortunately, due to green and vaguely goblin-shaped shenanigans, Hammerhead decides to betray Tombstone and sets out a spike trap. Surrounded by the police, they surrender.
Due to more Green Goblin shenanigans, Spidey ends up trapped inside a super-prison when all the cells suddenly open. Shocker A) has a pre-prepared bedsheet lasso — which is amazing — and B) is cellmates with "Mysterio" — actually just another android duplicate — whose "supervillain" mode he activates to help the inmates kill the bug (fun fact, this was the one of the first episodes of season two I watched as a kid, and so with no other context I legit thought Mysterio was a robot and that Spider-Man killed him when he blows it up
Unfortunately, Spidey tricks them into a room where sleeping gas can be administered, knocking all the villains out.
Is he Magnificent?
He's not a genius master manipulator like Otto or Tombstone, but of the minor villains he's still pretty memorable. Excluding the theater thing, every encounter between Spider-Man and Shocker portrays the latter as a particularly clever fighter, and whenever he does fail it's usually because of something he couldn't have possibly seen coming (an alien, Hammerhead's betrayal, a goddamn refrigerator).
Plus, he's pragmatic and pretty good at planning ahead — see using Sandman and Rhino as bait, the entire gold heist, etc.
Is he a Bastard?
Unrepentant mercenary, who tries numerous times to kill Spider-Man.
Verdict
It's a weak yes, but I'd still say yes to the most badass version of Spidey's most underrated villain.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Oct 27th 2021 at 6:00:27 AM
Slightly cautious yes to the entire state of Montana.
The page does say to start a new thread to add an image.
Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on Oct 26th 2021 at 12:09:49 PM
RIP Toriyama
I think with a good caption the Vincent image will work more than fine, the symbolism of the pellet and the portrayal of him as the mastermind of a parade float bombing does a lot, coupled with a proper philosophical quote by the man himself I think it'll be good to pass. What IP would pick for the image at this stage doesn't really matter, we have free reign for the first pic of a page under our banner and if we decide this one is good, then it's good by our standards. If not, I'll find us a different one, I'm sure.
Eager Yes to Spectacular!Shocker, great work there and I think he passes just fine as a smaller-scale badass criminal when the other MBs are either crime lord masterminds or an Anti-Hero cat burglar.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Now, for candidate number 2 from Yakuza 6. The most minor of the three candidates, and the one I'm most skeptical about. The sapient Roomba, Soji.
What is it? What does it do?
Soji is a vacuum robot designed to clean rooms. Given to a young man named Toshihiko Fujita by his girlfriend, Soji regularly cleaned up Fujita's room for him. Sixth months prior to the substory, Fujita buys an engagement ring to propose to his girlfriend, but never builds up the courage to actually propose to her. One day, Fujita drops his proposal ring, and Soji sucks it up and runs off into the streets of Kamurocho, Fujita chasing after it (and eventually, Kiryu too once he finds out the story)
Soji leads Fujita and Kiryu into a park where three thugs are standing at, provoking them by saying "Dirt Detected" near them. This pisses off the thugs, who decide to take their anger out on Soji. Fujita tries to convince the thugs to give Soji back to him, but they refuse and one of them punches Fujtita. Soji, despite just being a roomba, charges at the thug with enough force to tackle him to the ground to provoke a fight between Kiryu, Fujita, and the thugs.
Kiryu and Fujita beat them and Soji drops the wedding ring. Fujita is still skeptical if he's even worthy of propsing to his girlfriend since he needed Kiryu to solve his problem. However, Fujita's girlfriend, Kotomi, arrives having heard Soji's voice. Soji drops the proposal ring near Kotomi, letting her know about Fujita's intentions to propose to her. This, alongside Kiryu's words, gives Fujita the push he needs to propose to his girlfriend, who accepts, Soji circling around the engaged couple saying that it completed it's task.
Is it magnificent?
For a Roomba that only speaks in automated lines, it shows a surprising amount of personality. It steals Fujita's ring and deliberately leads him to a chase all around town for the sake of helping him gain confidence, sasses a group of thugs under the guise of cleaning, and despite being more than happy giving his owner a hard time, proves to have his back during dangerous situations.
Is it a bastard?
This is where I'm not too sure on. Soji shown itself to be mischevious, stealing a valuable ring from Fujita, having him chase it throughout all of Kamurocho, and deliberately putting Fujita into a fight against a group of thugs. But at worst, it's just making his owner exhausted, putting him at risk of being beat up, and putting the engagement ring at risk of being gone for good. Not sure if that's enough.
Final Thoughts?
I'm skeptical, but your call. And at the very least, it's interesting to unironically effort post a Roomba as a potential candidate.
Edited by Awesomekid42 on Oct 26th 2021 at 1:17:24 PM
Gonna say yes to the Roomba.
Imhotep, Melchior, Okada, Shocker and Soji
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Shenzi
The MILF Virus
Imhotep, Melchior, Okada, Shocker and the Vacuum Cleaner.
You know a vacuum cleaner got proposed, does this character in a fanfic I have in mind sounds too ridiculous to take seriously? The character is no joke Carl Wheezer from Jimmy Neutron... well adult Carl from that one episode where they travel in the future. The fanfic is essentially if the story of Fire Emblem: Three Houses was done with Nickledeon characters
To be fair we have Spongebob as a CM so...
Edited by TheImmortalAngelNewton on Oct 27th 2021 at 6:44:10 AM
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
Gotta love Jaws!
to Montana and Soji.
Haha this is MB, not CM, I'd love to see that!
Edited by Amanofmanyinterests on Oct 27th 2021 at 6:18:15 AM
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
The Draftsman of Doom
Sure to Soji the Roomba.
Feels good, don't it?
Yes to Shocker and Soji.
x4 Please propose fafic Carl Wheezer. My curiosity is piqued.
Very low stakes by the standards of the series (just given by the EPs I generally read about the series here), but I guess luring you to get beat up by some thugs is bad enough. Amused Roomba.
Montana!Shocker.
Yes to Shocker.
Got a quote proposal for us today...
You may say it's cliche, but I say that it's an art
Every deck needs a knave to come and stack the cards
The world may be yours to save, but it's mine to tear apart
One button's all it takes to set the Earth a-quaking
Or is the world afraid, and the planet's started shaking?
You'd need tectonic plates to serve the schemes I'm baking
And the menu for today is some world domination!
I honestly did not even know the process, I thought I could just lump that with the batch.
Also on Bebop Ravok and I were looking over this image... not sure it'll work alone unless we like Vincent's imagery with the orb but I think it could combine nice if someone wants to add in one of his pumpkin balloon's being detonated.