During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Settra.
easy yea
Goku Black
Setra
Call me... Del Noir...
to Settra.
To Setra
Settra who seems amazing.
Hey. So there's a Magnificent Bastard entry under the YMMV page for Teen Titans Go! To the Movies. I recently updated it with a couple of tropes and a little more clarity to some of them. I also added a spoiler tag because of how he counts as one. It can stay right?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yes. I did his effort post and he was approved.
Sidenote: Anyone here ever play Nioh? There's a potential I'd like to discuss
to Kurt Hendricks and Settra the Impresishable.
I'm Sad Frogerson.
I'm honestly surprised no else voted for my EP on Baron Zemo. So far, only 43110 voted on him and it was a ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
. I'd like a bit more feedback before deciding if he counts or not.
But with that out of the way, it's time for my second candidate from The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes. This candidate hails from the second season and the mastermind behind the story-arc driving the first half of the season.
Who Is She and What Does She Do?
Queen Veranke is the ruler of the Skrull Empire and the Big Bad for the Secret Invasion arc in the second season. Once ruling from the Skrull homeworld, her people were devastated when Galactus came and devoured the entire planet. Although the Skrulls survived, they were currently locked in a war with the Kree without a strategic base of operations. Veranke led the Skrulls to Earth based on an ancient prophecy. It told of a planet that not only had plentiful resources, but was also in a key position to create wormholes for travelling across the cosmos. Not wanting to risk an all-out invasion, Queen Veranke instead had her people infiltrate key institutions on Earth using their shapeshifting abilities. These included factions like SHIELD, HYDRA, AIM, the Avengers, and various other governments, superhero teams, and criminal organizations. Veranke herself participated in this Secret Invasion, having disguised herself as SHIELD agent Mockingbird. She had the real deal sent to a Skrull prison satellite along with everyone else who had been replaced.
Nick Fury became aware of the Skrull threat after a mission by Hawkeye and Mockingbird revealed that Madame Viper had been replaced. He chose Mockingbird as one of his confidants in his hunt for the Skrulls, unaware that she had been replaced. After Fury learned that one of the Skrulls had infiltrated the Avengers, Veranke convinced him that Madame Viper had a Skrull replace Hawkeye during their confrontation. This was to throw suspicion off the real Skrull spy, who had replaced Captain America. When Fury informed Iron Man about the potential Skrull among his ranks, Tony accusations lead to the departure of many of his teammates. This left the Skrull Captain America in charge of the remaining Avengers.
After the Skrull's prisoners escaped in a breakout arranged by Captain America, Queen Veranke was far from disappointed. The breakout proved Captain America could unite people from different backgrounds for a common cause. He would be the perfect man to convince humanity to surrender to the Skrulls as they began their invasion. As the Skrull fleets began moving in, Fury realized Mockingbird was a Skrull because she never told him that SHIELD had taken the Hulk into custody. Veranke took out Fury and the rest of his teammates, including disabling Tony's armor thanks to intel gathered by the Captain America Skrull. The spies among Earth's ranks planted explosives that took out key targets, like the SHIELD Helicarrier, the Damocles, and Avengers Mansion.
After receiving no word from her invasion force in Wakanda, Veranke realized the remaining Avengers must've taken care of them. She ordered the Skrull Captain America to divert the Avengers to Washington, so her forces there could ambush them and hold them captive. Before she could finish off Nick Fury, Maria Hill tracked down his location and forced her to retreat. She eventually arrived in Washington, where the Skrull Captain America had just finished his broadcast about how humanity should surrender to the Skrulls. That's when Captain America, Iron Man, and Thor arrived to stop the Skrulls once and for all. Realizing their plan to have humanity surrender was compromised, Veranke activated her failsafe. She had her spies in AIM activate a satellite array that would transmit a frequency that would kill every single human on the planet. Thor flew into Earth's orbit and destroyed the satellites, allowing the Avengers to foil the Skrull invasion. Veranke could only watch on confusion as the prophecy was ultimately proven wrong, and she and her followers were placed in suspended animation within Prison 42.
Is She Charming, Charismatic, and Good on Her Feet?
Veranke has the loyal following of her subjects and never shows them any disrespect. She's able to keep appearances as Mockingbird and was able to infiltrate Fury's Secret Warriors despite his mistrust of his peers. Her initial plan involved her subjects using subterfuge instead of raw force to take over the planet and very few people were aware of the Skrull's presence until they started their invasion in full-force. She's able to pick up on how people rally around Captain America and incorporated that into her scheme to get humanity to surrender peacefully to her empire. Veranke never raises her voice even her talking to her enemies or her plans go awry. To closest time she loses her cool is right before her defeat, where she has trouble coming to grips that the prophecy she based her invasion on could be wrong. Her confidence in the prophecy may be her downfall, but she managed to accomplish a lot and nearly took down most of biggest institutions on the planet.
Is She a Bastard? Too Much of a Bastard?
Veranke's motivation is to find a new homeworld for her people, who devastated by a combination of Galactus and their war with the Kree Empire. Veranke never treats her followers cruelly and is willing to join their invasion on the front lines. But she still is an alien conqueror. She makes it very clear that she'll turn humanity into slaves once they surrender and is willing to kill those who do not submit to the Empire. As shown once the Avengers begin to resist, she doesn't hesitate in her plan to wipe out every human being on the planet, a plan that would've ultimately killed billions of people. She's also allows her prison to torture their prisoners, as she wants to know exactly how to make humans break. Needless to say, the Skrulls are not in service to humanity, no matter what the Skrull Captain America might say.
Competition?
Veranke is able to outsmart several of the Marvel Universe's smartest minds. She planted a spy among the Avengers and no one suspected a thing for months. She worked under Nick Fury and by the time he realized the truth, it was far too late to stop the invasion. If Thor hadn't been on Earth in time, her plan to take over the Earth probably would've succeeded. Veranke managed to plant spies in several supervillain organizations, such as HYDRA and AIM. Doctor Doom was the one who ultimately found a way to detect the Skrulls, but he left all the fighting to the superheroes to handle. Veranke would've killed Nick Fury had Maria not used an LMD when the Skrulls destroyed the Helicarrier.
Verdict?
After what 43110 said about Zemo, I'm more hesitant regarding some of Veranke's nastier traits mitigating her Magnificence. After all, she did nearly wipe out humanity when they wouldn't submit to her. I feel she doesn't come across as prideful like Zemo and she definitely shows cunning and strategic planning required for this trope. I'll leave it to you guys, but I got a couple more candidates down the line, so stay tuned.
And seriously, I'd really appreciate some more votes on Zemo please.
I think ultimately, I'm going to vote yea to both
Goku Black
Ill give them both a yes having seen it. They are impressive.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Now Veranke I can vote yeah on.
I'll give a to both Baron Zemo and Queen Veranke.
Zemo and Veranke.
To both Zemo and The Queen.
Does Loki from the same series qualify despite him being a CM?
Edited by G-Editor on Dec 5th 2018 at 12:42:45 AM
I'm Sad Frogerson.
I'll be discussing Loki soon enough. Right now, he's the only one who's listed as a Magnificent Bastard on the show's YMMV page, so I'll be doing an EP on him regardless. Expect it in the next day or two.
Alright, what Joby was referring to was that he had updated the existing entry that Username did and what I need to know is are we allowing the update or can we just keep User's original? I need to know so I can get it and the locked page's version to match.
Whether or not we keep the actual text, the new edits added in a sink hole and are bringing the entry over limit on it's potholes, so that's gotta be fixed even if we keep the flow.
Edited by 43110 on Dec 5th 2018 at 6:39:49 AM
Zemo and Verenke
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Zero & Veren
Goku Black
@G-Editor : If memory serves me right of Earth's mightest. Next up shoild be Loki, Doctor Doom and Ultron. Tgoose were the Evil Genuis villains of the show. Red Skull as per usual is too much of a dick.
Edited by miraculous on Dec 6th 2018 at 10:20:04 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I'm Sad Frogerson.
Well, you got at least one right.
Right now, the current tally is 7 , 1 for Zemo, and 8 for Veranke. My next candidate is ultimately responsible for almost everything that happened within the first season of the show. A god who is known to pull mischief every now and then:
Who Is He and What Does He Do?
Loki is the God of Mischief, Thor's evil step-brother, and the ultimate Big Bad of the first season. During a war between the Frost Giants and Asgard, Odin slayed Loki's father and took it upon himself to raise the young Frost Giant as his own. He grew up resenting Thor for having Odin's favor and was devastated when learned the truth about his heritage. Seeking the throne of Asgard for himself, he put a plan into motion to make sure his brother wouldn't interfere with his schemes. On Earth, Loki manipulated criminals such as the Wrecking Crew to create havoc, leading Thor to spend more time away from Asgard. He used this as leverage against Thor while disguised as Baldur and informed Odin that he was flaunting his powers for his own personal gain.
Behind Odin's back, Loki traveled to Jotunheim and warned the Frost Giants that Odin was planning an invasion on their realm. He convinced them that the only way to stop Odin was to launch a preemptive strike. Loki led a horde of Frost Giants against Asgard, laying waste to the realm until Thor defeated him and his army. He was soon brought before Odin and sentenced to spend an eternity on the Isle of Silence. Little did Odin realize that was his plan all along. With everyone on Asgard believing that he was now out of the way, he was now free to seize his opportunity to claim the Nine Realms for himself.
Loki's manipulations had led to a falling out between Thor and Odin, leaving Asgard without its strongest warrior. With the help of Amora the Enchantress and Skurge the Executioner, Loki escaped the Isle of Silence and arranged a mass break-out of all the supervillain prisons. This served as the perfect distraction to keep Thor on Earth. Loki worked from the shadows to keep his brother occupied as he sent Amora and Skurge to form the Masters of Evil. He also had Malekith the Accursed ressurected in a scheme that nearly started another ice age. Odin had entered the Odinsleep during this time, leaving him and Asgard vulnerable. Loki was able to steal Odin's power for himself by corrupting the Tree of Life and conquered most of the Nine Realms for himself, saving Earth for last. He ordered Amora and Skurge to use the Norn Stones to summon his armies to Earth while also using his powers to prevent Thor from returning to Asgard prematurely. The Avengers were able to foil his plans by destroying the Stones, but this ended up teleporting them across the different Realms. Thor was transported to Odin's throne room... where Loki was waiting.
Thor was put in chains and Loki prepared to have him executed along with the rest of those who remained loyal to Odin. However, the arrival of the Avengers put a halt to that plan. Loki summoned Hoarfen the Ice Wolf to defeat the Avengers, but Captain America's strategic thinking was able to take it down. Using the Odinforce, Loki swept through the Avengers and was about to finish them off before the arrival of Iron Man in his newly-forged armor. Iron Man distracted Loki while the Avengers freed Thor. The team split in two; one half to take care of Loki, while the other went to sever his connection to the Tree of Life. Loki began draining more of the Odinforce, which risked tearing all of the Nine Realms apart. Luckily, Ant-Man was able to uproot the Tree of Life, which sapped Loki of his powers and restored them to Odin. Loki remained defiant as Odin came to punish him, deciding on a fate worse than the Isle of Silence. And so, Loki was left entangled in the roots of a giant tree, where a giant serpent would drip venom in his eyes for the rest of eternity.
But eternity's a really long time, so Loki would make one final appearance afterwards. Amora paid him a visit after she had become a servant of Surtur and offered to set him free for a price. She had placed a spell over the Avengers that robbed them of their powers and told Loki that his freedom will be granted if he was able to destroy Thor. He agreed, and Amora placed his soul within the Destroyer, a living suit of armor that was also a powerful Asgardian weapon. Loki was transported to Earth in his new form, and he began hunting the Avengers through the subway tunnels. After defeating the Wrecking Crew, he cornered the Avengers within an abandoned part of the subways complex. Despite getting a few good hits on the Destroyer, Loki was able to easily overpower them. He promised Thor that after he was through killing him, he'd find a way to take Amora's new powers for himself and take over Earth and Asgard. Despite being powerless and crippled, Thor refused to give up and continued to fight his brother. That would prove to be Loki's undoing, as Amora's spell could only be broken once its targets learned the values of humility. The Avengers regained their powers and defeated the Destroyer by overloading it with electricity. Loki's soul returned to his body as Amora left him to his eternal torment for his failure.
Is He Charming, Charismatic, and Good on His Feet?
Loki is the ultimate mastermind behind almost all the major conflicts in the first season. The mass breakout of the supervillain prisons and the formation of the Masters of Evil are directly because of him, and anything that resulted from that can be placed on his shoulders. Loki is able to convince the Frost Giants to aid on his attack on Asgard, a suicidally bold maneuver that was designed to fail. Loki is easily able to take over Asgard and six other realms, all without attracting the attention of Thor. And he was able to amass quite the army for himself, as many realms such as Jotunheim seem to follow him by choice.
Now, once Loki had the Odinforce, he mostly relies on that to deal with the Avengers, but that's really all he needs. Had Ant-Man not uprooted the Tree of Life, he probably would've won. Albeit, after taking down most of the Nine Realms down with him. He also remains Defiant to the End once Odin arrives to punish him... which in hindsight was probably a bad idea considering his ultimate fate. His biggest flaw was underestimating the might of the Avengers, as he didn't think a bunch of mortals could pose a threat to his rule. But when the fight did come to him, he proved more than a match for them. He even kicked the Hulk's butt! That just seems wrong.
Is He a Bastard? Too Much of a Bastard?
Like Zemo, Loki is currently listed as a Complete Monster, and for good reason. Loki despises Odin for slaying his father, but we don't see much in the way of him being neglected or abused. Loki barely hides his contempt towards his family and takes great pleasure at any chance he can get to kill his brother. He shown to be willing to betray those who are his allies and doesn't care if the realms he's conquered are destroyed, so long as he can get his vengeance against his brother. And that's not even going into how he was planning to execute any Asgardian who opposed his rule.
Is there anything that really tempers this? Well, he keeps his focus of his sadism on Thor for the most part. And Amora pointed out that even he wasn't crazy enough to risk getting involved with Surtur. Loki mostly remains behind the shadows for most of the show, and only really shows his nasty colors once he has the power he's craved for so long. His guile is definitely on its A-game for the first season, and very little proved to be a threat to his rule.
Competition?
Loki is the Greater-Scope Villain of the show, so he has many villains doing his bidding without them even realizing it. Even Zemo was ultimately doing his dirty work by forming the Masters of Evil. I mentioned that Zemo almost derailed Loki's plans by claiming his armies for his own, but had not done that, Loki almost certainly would've conquered Earth without leaving Asgard. That could be considered to be Amora's fault, since she was the one who recruited Zemo in the first place.
Now, in the second season, Loki is really not in a position to take advantage over others. If he wants his freedom, he had to do what Amora asked of him and she's the one who's pulling Loki's strings in that episode. Even then, Loki admits he plans to betray her once he's set free and claim her power for his own. How he was planning to do that is unclear, but it shows he wasn't going to let her push him around for much longer.
Verdict?
Another one I'm torn on. Loki is one of the smartest and devious villains in the show. He's The Chessmaster behind almost every conflict and has orchestrated the conquest of several realms before the Avengers realize he's even involved. But's he also opportunistic and uncaring about the lives he puts in harm's way for his quest for vengeance. He straddles the line of being confident in his abilities and being a bit unhinged. I lean toward keeping him, but I'll let the thread decide again.
I have one last candidate from the show lined up, and I guess I'll also discuss the other villains who I considered, but passed on for one reason or another.
