During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
43110, you're aware you have now invited discussion on what MB's avert those tropes, right?
...um... is Raoh either of those? I'm not familiar enough with him to say. EDIT: ![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
OK. Honestly... it's basically in the page description anyway, so perhaps this was a foolish idea from the start. It's like saying "Can turquoise not be blue?"
I mean, with Lionel Luthor codifying the MB, that's probably a big reason why those two tropes are so closely related to this trope.
Edited by PolarPhantom on Nov 21st 2018 at 2:01:56 PM
btw anyone mind double-checking my pending list and making sure I didn't forget anything?
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
@43110 You mean the writeup list or the Pending to do list? Oh... And speaking of which, I've been delaying the candidate for so long but expect an EP from me soon.
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Satoshi's GLaDOS is missing.
Edited by DocSharp on Nov 21st 2018 at 9:39:34 AM
Got it.
- Portal: GLaDOS is computer created by Cave Johnson to run Aperture Science in his death. Once activated, GLaDOS proceeded to kill most of the scientists with neurotoxin and took over the Enrichment Center to conduct tests at her own leisure. In the present, GLaDOS put Chell through a series of potential lethal tests before trying to murder her. Defeated and shutdown by Chell in retaliation, GLaDOS is accidentally awoken years later by Wheatley. Throwing Chell back into more tests, she is eventually overthrown by Wheatley thanks to Chell's actions. With Wheatley threatening to destroy the facility with his own stupidity, GLaDOS convinces Chell to help her take Aperture back from Wheatley, and in turn lets Chell go when that is done. Switching focus toward Cooperative Testing, GLaDOS uses the robots Atlas and P-body to secure control over the lower parts of the facility and eventually give her access to more human test subjects. When a mysterious hacker (actually a mother bird on a keyboard) forces her hand, resulting in the deaths of her human test subjects, GLaDOS sends the robots after them before adopting the babies to raise as killers.
Edited by SatoshiBakura on Nov 22nd 2018 at 10:05:48 AM
I'm gonna be taking a break from this site. I'll be back next Friday for The Crimes of Johnny Depp. Just need to make sure I don't get burned out - these Winter months are often troublesome for me.
But by all means, I invite people to message me on whether a Magnificent Bastard has to be a Manipulative Bastard and/or a Chessmaster. My opinion? I dunno. There's a part of me that intuitively thinks no, but then another part that thinks it's a contradiction in definitions - like if we were to ask if all seagulls were necessarily birds. Though I think a Guile Hero need not be manipulative and may not be a Chessmaster... maybe. Chessmaster's harder to not reach when you're super smart.
Take care one and all.
Looks good, go ahead and add!
@ Polar this is the last thing I'll say on it and I don't really follow what does/doesn't happen with a Guile Hero but for MB I think bits of both are going to work their way in here regardless. Like, you probably won't find Manipulative Bastard on Isaac's character sheet but he did goad info out of Godbrand before killing him. Also the big reason Kimblee isn't here is specifically because there's no overarching goal to make him a Chessmaster: he's not really playing events. Also, best of luck with your time off, hope you're feeling okay!
Edited by 43110 on Nov 22nd 2018 at 10:49:54 AM
- Daredevil: Wilson Fisk runs a complex scheme to make himself the hero to Hell's Kitchen, all while bringing organized crime under his thumb for the supposed betterment of the city. Falling prey to his own insecurities and impulsivity, Fisk is defeated and imprisoned, but slowly rebuilds himself as more dangerous and clever than ever. Shedding his former flaws, Fisk becomes a force to be reckoned with, even arranging for the Punisher to dispose of his obstacles, outmanuevers and crushes all his opposition and arranges for his own release from prison under 'house arrest' where he still dominates organized crime as the true kingpin. Steadily manipulating others into his grasp, including the deadly FBI agent 'Dex' Pointdexer, he arranges for Dex to impersonate Daredevil on several murders as to frame him, all while rising even further and even getting his hooks into FBI agents. Even when defeated, he makes a deal with Daredevil for the safety of his beloved Vanessa and seals it with an honorable handshake, constantly showcasing himself as one of the most brilliant and skilled villains in all the Marvel cinematic universe.
- Gargoyles: Goliath's evil clone Thailog starts by luring both Goliath and Xanatos to him to claim a massive amount of money and eliminate his rivals. With his plan going off nearly perfectly, Thailog fakes his death and begins to build up a power base in the world. Seducing Demona, Thailog arranges for her to win the heart of Macbeth in her human guise, while planning to have them kill one another so he can take over both their operations. Thailog later arranges for the near elimination of the Manhattan Clan after he's cloned them, while also planning ahead for Demona's betrayal as well. Combining Xanatos's charm and brilliant mind with G Oliath's power, Thailog shows why he is one of the single most dangerous villains in all of Gargoyles.
- Naruto: Kisame Hoshigaki at first appears only a 'thug lost in the mist' but is in truth one of the most level and devoted members of Akatsuki. After defeating Killer Bee, Kisame uses a plan to fake his own death with a White Zetsu clone and infiltrates bee's village of Kumogakure, gathering intelligence on the Allied Shinobi Forces. It is revealed later that Kisame was once tasked with eliminating traitors and potential captives in his home village of the Mist, even luring his treacherous teacher to his death to claim his sword Samehada. When exposed, Kisame uses clever tactics to preserve the intelligence and eventually, realizing he is not 'such a terrible man' after all, chooses to commit suicide rather than face capture, while using his last moments to rig the scroll with a trap that results in the intelligence finding its way to his superiors anyways, his death so impressive and touching that even the incredibly forgetful Might Guy, Kisame's supposed nemesis vows to remember Kisame for the rest of his life.
Out of curiousity, does Madara Uchiha count? I know Obito is an easy no, but what about Madara? I haven't seen much of Shippuden so I don't know if there's anything preventing him from counting.
Edited by Klavice on Nov 22nd 2018 at 12:50:33 PM
No. Madara's entire life and goal turns out to be him badly played by Black Zetsu. Literally everything he has done to fulfill this plan has just been for an "lol, gotcha" at the very end.
Like I said, if I Tobi was Madara and if the final battle wasn’t so dragged out, then Tobi would count.
Edited by SatoshiBakura on Nov 22nd 2018 at 3:53:16 PM
Kabuto likewise just misses qualifying by the skin of his teeth, and Pain...you know there's potential there, given he's implied to not be the pawn Obito thinks he is, in addition to breaking Obito's script.
Itachi is a hilarious "haha, no." Like, the series WANTS him to be one, but he's so not this.
Edited by Lightysnake on Nov 22nd 2018 at 12:54:56 PM
I never thought Pain as a complete pawn of Tobi, just having different goals.
Itachi is hardly any more of a bastard than Sasuke. Literally the worst thing he does is kill the Uchiha clan and that's because they were trying to revolt against the Leaf village.
After that he goes through tons of humiliation including being absolutely destroyed by his little brother, so yeah even having not watched much of Shippuden I can say Itachi does not count.
Even Nagato admitted he was used like Itachi was (and Tobi played Itachi bad). Though the Akatsuki novel makes it clear Tobi is badly wary of Nagato and genuinely fears what he would do without Konan's influence.
Pretty sure Kaguya (the final Big Bad doesn't count either due to being chained to everything in a rather ham-fisted way).
I wouldn’t mind an effort post on Pain, given that he is aware of being a pawn. He is after all one of the better villains in my opinion.
Kishimoto can write good villains, but when he tries to apply ideas that don’t work, they fall apart.
Kaguya doesn’t count. She sucks as a villain and loses easily.
Edited by SatoshiBakura on Nov 22nd 2018 at 4:17:35 AM
The Unknown Unknown
EDIT: Phone glitched.
Edited by erazor0707 on Nov 22nd 2018 at 1:10:26 AM
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
The Unknown Unknown
Agree. I'd say it's time for an EP then. Let the chips fall where they may.
Edited by erazor0707 on Nov 22nd 2018 at 1:10:39 AM
A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Alright, I'll get to Pain sooner or later, then.
Goku Black
Honestly of the main villains. Pain is the only I'd actually support. The others suffer from being pathetic in the end while Pain at least goes out on an honourable note.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Alrighty, here's everybody's favorite Japanophile:
- Fatal Fury: Geese Howard is the infamous crime boss of Southtown and the most prolific villain in the SNK library. Desiring power at a young age, Geese trained at the Hakkyokuseiken school of martial arts, while steadily developing connections to Southtown's mafia through bribery and intimidation tactics, culminating in him overthrowing reigning kingpin Mr. Big and becoming the police chief of the city, with every cop and politician in his pocket. He then began hosting the King of Fighters tournament series to find worthy henchmen, strong-armed renowned martial artist Takuma Sakazaki into working for him by holding his daughter Yuri hostage, and vengefully murdered his hated rival Jeff Bogard. Despite suffering setbacks due to defeats at the hands of Ryo Sakazaki and Terry Bogard, Geese always recovers, and when Terry finally beats him for good and tries to save him from plummeting to his death, Geese chooses to fall as a final act of spite, laughing all the way down. For all his misdeeds, Geese never loses his trademark swagger, and so great is his popularity that an alternate timeline showed that he survived the fall, continuing to plot behind the scenes.
It's quite a bit longer than my usual entries - I might poke at it a bit.
Edited by DocSharp on Nov 22nd 2018 at 1:33:55 AM
Don't generally like neutral EPs but Pain sounds like a close enough call it's warranted.
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Yeah, think I'm supporting Pain getting an EP as he's the only villain of Naruto I can think of as an MB
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
G, do me a favour when you add that... gut the Manipulative Bastard and Chessmaster potholes... gonna be hard-pressed to find an MB those don't apply to and one is making a
Chain Link anyways.fuck, Sinkhole, that was the term I was looking for!
Edited by 43110 on Nov 21st 2018 at 7:35:04 AM