Unintentionally Unsympathetic and Unintentionally Sympathetic Cleanup

From YMMV.RWBYV 7 E 7 Worst Case Scenario, this seems to be closet complaining, but is misrepresenting the scene concerned:

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: We are meant to be on Nora's side when she criticizes Ironwood angrily for keeping secrets from the public concerning Salem, Amity Tower, and Tyrian. She even blurts out 'I am so sick of secrets!'. Many viewers found this hypocritical of her given she and the rest of the group had kept many secrets from Ironwood as well, as well as not understanding the situation Ironwood found himself trapped in.

She isn't criticising Ironwood, she reacts in response to something completely different characters say, and is lashing out at everyone — both Ironwood's team and her group are keeping secrets, and she's fed up with all of them. Word of God later confirmed she's also still angry with her love interest Ren's refusal to talk to her about his problems in the previous episode.

Note: if this entry can be removed, I'll have to send the page to the Cut List, as it's the only entry on the page.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Apr 8th 2022 at 11:21:34 AM

Is there any particular waiting period for Unintentionally Sympathetic? There is one character that seems to be getting this kind of reaction (basically a Villainy-Free Villain who only resorts to real villainous actions due to the heroes meddling with their plans), but I am not sure when it is fine to add it.

The story/event the character was in is concluded storywise, so we have all the info the writers are giving us.

Edited by TPPR10 on Apr 14th 2022 at 1:00:51 PM

Well, you should wait long enough to know for certain if the character is meant to be sympathetic or not.

I removed a UU example from Helluva Boss on the basis that the characters are portrayed in the wrong and the show makes it clear their behavior is not okay, but the user re-added them on the basis that we're supposed to sympathize with them anyway. Thoughts?

Someone was banned for that. Is this that person ban evading.

You mean Edit Warring a U.U. entry on this show's page specifically?

Also can I get any more opinions on this? Sorry if I'm being annoying by asking a lot, but I would like more than one person's approval before going ahead and cutting the entry.

Edited by GenericGuy2000 on Apr 15th 2022 at 3:01:21 PM

No their was a guy who went on long random rants about it and even vandalized the page to make a point about how UU a...group of Black Comedy Villain Protagnosists are (despite them being pricks being the point).

That's good of you; some people who post in the threads will remove an entry they want to remove as soon as one other troper agrees with them (which causes problems when other tropers disagree, and the entry ends up being restored).

As for the entry you brought up, I agree with removing it; calling a whole species Unintentionally Unsympathetic is a stretch (and it doesn't look like they're intended to be sympathetic anyway).

Edited by UFOYeah on Apr 15th 2022 at 12:05:53 PM

I guess my question about this trope is whether it applies if the character has a tragic backstory, but is portrayed as wrong for their actions anyway.(That's the case for HB, for instance.)

Personally I think it should count. A character's actions could be portrayed as wrong, but their motivation could still be framed as sympathetic.

I mean, that's all hypothetical, it's impossible to say one way or another since each case is different.

Is it okay for me to send YMMV.RWBYV 7 E 7 Worst Case Scenario to the Cut List?

I'd say cut if what it describes is inaccurate. It many are still complaining about it it might be worth reworking to accurately covey why or firing something else to put it under.

The debated examples YMMV.Helluva Boss:

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Even though the show makes it clear that most of the main characters are supposed to be awful people and that their actions aren't okay, some of them still fall into this trope.
  • Some fans find it hard to sympathize with Blitzo due to his Unsympathetic Comedy Protagonist traits, especially his Jerkass behavior towards Moxxie and selfish attitude often causing problems with his relationships with other people to the point that when the audience is supposed to feel pity for him, it can fall flat to some viewers.
  • Stolas himself can also be hard to sympathize with. The show wants the audience to feel bad for him as he's seemingly stuck in a marriage he either never wanted to be in or no longer wants to be in; however, throughout the first season he cares more about whatever makes him happy than what's best for his family (i.e. lying to his daughter about needing security in order to flirt with the same imp that's the cause of his decaying home life, constantly demeaning Blitzo (such as calling him "Blitzy" and "his little imp plaything"). This, of course, isn't bringing up some of his more creepier behavior against Blitzo (even if Blitzo himself, as pointed above, isn't anymore likeable). Understandable some fans didn't feel sorry for him when Episode 7 rolled around.

This reads more like Angst Aversion (flawed beyond what some are willing to stomach) than them being unsympathetic for different reasons than intended (as Villain/Unsympathetic Comedy Protagonists it should only apply to the rare specific moments they were meant to be sympathetic). I'd say cut and leave a note saying examples should be approved.

• Joseph's Machines:
  • Jiwi. The entire series happened because of Jiwi's inability to acknowledge June's existence and the fact that she isn't aware of everything they do at any time, ask others for help with anything, or help himself when it comes to the things that he like (e.g. computers or cake).
  • Joseph himself. He keeps creating machines that serve no practical purpose and lead to things breaking or him being hurt, yet he keeps doing it.

I intend to cat as failing to explain why they were supposed to be sympathetic.

Any objections to my proposals?

I agree that those examples should be cut, especially the ones from Joseph's Machines that give no context to why the characters are supposed to be sympathetic.

The Simpsons S8 E17: "My Sister, My Sitter" has this entry:

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Many reviewers have noted that, as callously overblown as Bart's retaliation and the aftermath was, Marge and Homer likely should have known that officially putting Bart under the care of his little sister would be an incredibly humiliating blow for him, and would have no doubt led to a lot of misery for Lisa who, responsible or not, is still an eight year being left alone with a baby and an infamously rebellious ten year old compared to the relatively well behaved kids she babysat beforehand. Similarly, Lisa, for all she suffers throughout the episode, was also more concerned about protecting her reputation as a babysitter than getting Bart help for his concussion.

Marge and Homer weren't intended to be sympathetic like Lisa was, and there's not enough evidence in the example to make the audience lose sympathy for Lisa.

Here's an issue with this entry on Raya and the Last Dragon that I would like to address

• Unintentionally Sympathetic: A lot of fans took issue with the film's message of Raya learning An Aesop about overcoming her trust issues by having more faith in Namaari to do the right thing, instead believing Raya to be Properly Paranoid and Namaari completely undeserving. The scene in which Namaari kills Sisu is especially contentious, given that she accuses Raya of having cajoled her into it and Raya comes to believe that Namaari had a point, but many fans considered Namaari to be employing Why Did You Make Me Hit You? logic for the sake of Blaming the Victim and see the incident as entirely her fault, given that the incident was kicked off by Namaari breaking Raya's trust in her to not come armed to begin with. Likewise, many fans take issue with the film seemingly not acknowledging Namaari's central role in the inciting incident that kicks off the main plot in favor of dividing the blame equally with Raya, as well as with Namaari having the gall to then try to kill Raya over it.

Sure, Raya comes off as sympathetic, but who said it was unintentional? Being sympathetic and being in the right are two different things. And these complaints of Namaari pinning blame on Raya seem much too nitpicky. When she says "you're as much to blame for Sisu's death as I am", of course she's not wrong, nor is she deflecting all the blame placed on herself. It was clear that they were both mixed up in the whole ordeal. Which is why I think this entry should be cut.

Plus, I too thing the entry on the Simpsons should be cut.

The movie presents Raya learning to trust Namaari as being the lesson she had to learn. This means that we're supposed to feel bad for Namaari when she gets rejected by Raya, as Namaari is never shown to learn her own lesson and work toward forgiveness. Otherwise, the intended "trust is good" moral would make even less sense than it already does.

I'm the one who added it, after checking to see if it's OK to post, which it was ruled as being. Check the top of last page.

Also, whether you agree or not, and whether I think so or not, this particular scene and the issues surrounding it are one of the most heavily-criticized around the fandom. I've seen four videos and countless social media posts bringing up that issue in the last few months.

Edited by AlleyOop on Apr 25th 2022 at 9:16:31 AM

Another Simpsons one:

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Homer and Marge. While Bart, Lisa, and Maggie were taken because of a series of misunderstandings, Homer and Marge have shown multiple times that they aren't exactly model parents. Homer has committed just about every form of abuse against Bart short of sexual, openly favors Lisa, and often forgets Maggie's name on a few occasions, and Marge is an Accomplice by Inaction on a good day and emotionally abusive on a bad one ("Bart vs. Thanksgiving," "Marge Be Not Proud" and "Bart The Mother" to name a few). It's made worse when Homer strangles Cletus during a parenting class and stops himself knowing that what he does as a parent is wrong, and he makes no effort to change his ways that don't get hit with the Reset Button in future episodes.

This seems like yet another shoehorn based on what fans think of the later episodes (notably, two of the three episodes where Marge is listed as an Abusive Parent come after this one), and there's over 25 years of material to nitpick from from the episodes released after this one. In fact, if you stretched the trope hard enough, you could write an Unintentionally Unsympathetic entry for at least one character in every episode.

I guess I'll go ahead and remove the Tokyo Ghoul example if nobody else objects.

There's also this I want to bring up from The Hunger Games page.

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: Gale in Mockingjay. While his anger at the Capitol is understandable, and he's not wrong to point out that innocent people will need to die to bring it down, it gets hard to sympathize with him when he seems so totally unconcerned with the massive civilian casualties his plans are likely to cause. It was especially jarring because he seemed to dismiss Katniss' own experiences, even though she was the one who took part in the Games twice.

Gale wasn't really meant to be sympathetic though. From what I remember his actions and vengeful behavior against the Capitol is framed in a He Who Fights Monsters light, and is one of the many things that drives Katniss to choose Peeta over him.

Katniss: That what I need to survive is not Gale's fire, kindled with rage and hatred. I have plenty of fire myself.

Edited by GenericGuy2000 on Apr 26th 2022 at 10:16:38 AM

Yeah, the entire point was that Gale was too far gone.

Exactly, which episode page is that Simpsons entry from?

Edited by BrianKT on Apr 28th 2022 at 7:54:38 AM

YMMV.The Simpsons S 7 E 3 Home Sweet Homediddly Dum Doodily, and agree with cutting as doesn't explain why they are supposed to be sympathetic here which is critical given they're normally Unsympathetic Comedy Protagonists supposed to be disliked for such.

For Raya and the Last Dragon it's US for Raya as the finale presents her equally in the wrong as Namaari (who's not UU as she has a Heel Realization afterward). Will change to this unless I hear anything.

• Unintentionally Sympathetic: In the finale Raya is supposed to be just as in the wrong as Namaari for their inability to trust each other resulted in Namari accidentally killing Sisu. But Namaari started the world ruining conflict by betraying Raya then spent years antagonizing her, then betrayed their attempted trust by bringing a weapon to their alleged parley. Raya's lack of trust that caused Sisu's death amounted to reacting in reflexive self-defense which many saw as 100% valid given Namaari's and others far worse and numerous betrayals.

ATT is currently tracking TheBashfulTro who's continuing to add misused UU examples despite being PM'd about it. They added this to YMMV.Alvin And The Chipmunks.

• Unintentionally Unsympathetic: The audience is supposed to see Dave as an in-over-his-head, but well meaning parental figure for the Chipmunks who learns to embrace his family. However, some audience members find it hard to sympathize with Dave, given his cruelty toward the chipmunks, along with nearly trying to send them away, even if he didn't go through with it.

The ATT is arguing it's misuse as "for some" is Weasel Words and just listing unsympathetic things they did as opposed to being unsympathetic for different reasons than intended. Should it be cut?

Umm... I checked, and this is the second time that Troper has added Unintentionally Unsympathetic to that page...