Duplicate tropes discussion thread

I think the former is about the promise and the latter is about a person who steadfastly keeps their promises.

What is the difference between Tortured Monster and Put Them All Out of My Misery?

The latter takes out their misery on others.

Tortured Monster seems to do that too, though. from the trope description: "but rather than being trapped with no way to fix it, they can (and do) lash out. They may be trying to get help and not understand that they're hurting people, or they're trying to provoke someone into killing them, or they just want everyone else to feel as bad as they do."

Give Me a Reason and Dog-Kicking Excuse?

I wonder what the differences in Cross-Cast Role and Cross-Dressing Voices are?

Edited by gjjones on Mar 6th 2023 at 6:15:29 AM

These two always bug me because it feels like splitting hairs and should probably be merged.

• Give Me a Reason is apparently when character A goes out of their way to provoke character B into to do something so character A can retaliate (verbally or physically).
• Dog-Kicking Excuse is character A waiting for character B to mess up and look actively for it so they'll have an excuse to kick them. It's said that this happens when the dog in question is extremely nice, cute, or helpless, etc., which makes directly kicking them without justification hard.

I think whether someone is actively provoking another or just waiting and hoping for them to fuck up aren't distinct because they're both about having an excuse to retaliate against someone, and maybe a wick check needs to be done to prove this.

I understood Dog-Kicking Excuse as making up an excuse for doing evil, which sounds is different from provoking someone.

With ^ and ^^ in mind I was looking at the on-page examples and it looks like Give Me a Reason has a problem because the majority of examples do not involve active provocation but just the character being glad that the other one gave them a reason to harm them.

One aspect where the two tropes seem to differ is the power differential between the conflicting parties. Give Me a Reason is for opponents of equal levels while Dog-Kicking Excuse is for a powerful character acting aggressively towards a poor underdog who probably would never fight back.

Edited by eroock on Mar 8th 2023 at 11:23:03 AM

Does DKE require the character to do something evil? I thought it's just for dog-kickers who look for anything wrong to make an issue of it per the description:

Depends on whether you consider Kick the Dog an act of evil. The trope seems to cover doing harm to the dog.

Kick the Dog states in its very first sentence that's it's often evil.

Edited by badtothebaritone on Mar 9th 2023 at 10:08:56 AM

Lead You Can Relate To vs Audience Surrogate?

Lead You Can Relate To is about the protagonist's demographic matching with the "target audience", Audience Surrogate is about their role in introducing the setting/characters.

Look Ma, I Am on TV! and Hi, Mom!? Latter seems to be a The Same, but More Specific version of the former.

Edited by badtothebaritone on Mar 10th 2023 at 12:27:57 PM

Reunion Vow and I Will Find You. What's the distinction, if there is one? Or is there none and should they be merged? (I am not willing to do the wicks for them at the moment, but like, in a theoretical way.)

Reunion Vow is a "we will meet again" type of promise (no active finding necessary); I Will Find You is a character motivation (no promises-of-finding need to have been made to each other)

Omnicidal Maniac and Suicidal Cosmic Temper Tantrum?

From the latter: "Related to the Omnicidal Maniac, who does this kind of thing; many of that trope's examples plan on sticking around afterwards, however."

I thought Omnicidal Maniac is someone who seeks to destroy the world For the Evulz or because they just enjoy causing wanton destruction. Suicidal Cosmic Temper Tantrum is when the character is dying and wants to take the world with them, or is a Death Seeker and wants to commit a Murder-Suicide on a global scale.

What is the difference between Straw Misogynist and He-Man Woman Hater?

The same as between Straw Feminist and Does Not Like Men.

Namely, Straw Misogynist is a male character whose ideals to favor men over women and thus justify his hatred towards women are deliberately over the top and intended to be proven wrong. He-Man Woman Hater is a male character who, for one reason or another, just feels disdain or dislike towards them. Unlike the other trope, it's not because of some sociopolitical ideal or belief. He just doesn't like women.

Straw characters are generally portrayed in a caricatured, very unrealistic way, whereas non-straw characters are more grounded in reality.

Edited by MyFinalEdits on Mar 17th 2023 at 8:45:37 AM

and While the commentary on Straw characters is correct, I think He-Man Woman Hater is a lot closer to Straw Misogynist than Does Not Like Men is to Straw Feminist and the description for He-Man Woman Hater notes as much. Does Not Like Men does not imply that the character believes in female supremacy/a centering of women over men (a matriarchal worldview), simply that the character doesn't like men. The "He-Man" in He-Man Woman Hater implies a centering of men in addition to a hatred of women, which brings it closer to a patriarchal worldview.

Also as the page says Does Not Like Men is often used sympathetically; I know I've seen it and mostly used it primarily for female characters who have suffered some kind of trauma at the hands of a man and have become avoidant of all male contact. He-Man Woman Hater is primarily used as an unsympathetic character trait, similar to Straw Misogynist.

So while in theory there is a slight difference, I'm not sure there actually is one in practice and would suggest a wick check between the two.

Edited by amathieu13 on Mar 17th 2023 at 12:25:02 PM

EDIT: nvm

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Mar 18th 2023 at 8:26:24 AM

Straw characters are also designed to be proven wrong or defeated, basically to have their views subverted, whereas a character who plays those traits straight doesn't have to be proven wrong. You can often tell a straw character by who their antagonist is. For a Straw Mysoginist, that will usually be some outspoken feminist character (not that those characters usually end up being all that feminist, by the way).

Does Not Like Men is often a sympathetic trait of feminist characters, yeah, though I think it partly harkens back to second-wavers (what we now tend to call TER Fs), who would often take any excuse to look down on men.

Edited by Redmess on Mar 20th 2023 at 7:34:26 PM