Needs Help: Punk Punk

Junk Punk is very different from Wasteland Punk. A work can use elements of both if they try.

edited 29th Mar '18 10:00:29 AM by Memers

That Wasteland Punk and The Apunkalypse are different, I meant.

Side note: what do you think of the name Rust Punk?

I dont know if I can agree to that. There is MASSIVE overlap between the two like I cant think of a Post Apocalyptic Punk work that isnt Wasteland Punk, looking at the page those that arnt Wasteland Punk I think is misuse (like AKIRA which is Post-Cyberpunk just set in a city after an apocalypse) or are set in a city with the wasteland being just outside of it like Judge Dredd.

Post-Apocalyptic Raiders (what we label Post-Apunkalyptic Armor) are exclusive to Wasteland Punk as well.

edited 29th Mar '18 10:19:00 AM by Memers

Ok, just to be clear. When I said earlier that we should limit this to established genres, I meant to use a very broad definition of "established"—one that would definitely include emerging genres.

I just think we should have some evidence that they are emerging, and not just something a troper came up with one day. Or something that was mentioned once in an offhand joking comment on some random forum. (GURPS has published a long, semi-humorous list of what should probably be called "suggestions" rather than genres—I'd rather not include their entire list.)

I think we're getting close to needing our first crowner, but I'm not 100% sure what should be on it. But I do believe it will have to be about inclusion criteria, because we seem to not be reaching any sort of consensus.

Some possible questions:

• Should we limit this to established and emerging genres?
• Should we have a TV-Tropes-only section for so-called genres which are only known as "somethingpunk" on TV Tropes?
• Should the existence of a TV Tropes page with "punk" in the name be automatic grounds for inclusion?

Other suggestions welcomed.

Repair shop threads already get bogged down all too easily. Limiting the scope of this thread to the contents of the Punkpunk page, is pretty much the only hope we have of ever finishing this before some admin says "discussion stalled and clock's expired—closing."

I thought we were making progress for a while there, but if this devolves into an endless debate about the fate of the Desert Punk page, I think the thread is doomed.

edited 29th Mar '18 11:09:32 AM by Xtifr

you have a point, but any conversation about the merits of inclusion in punk punk is going to devolve into page specific definitions. Thats why i argued for leaving the examples as is, and focusing on the definiton and categorization of Punk Punk. If we later decide a specific punk genre like Desert Punk isnt a thing we can get rid of its own page and its listing in Punk Punk simultaneously.

If we can agree on inclusion criteria, then on-going maintenance becomes easy—does Wateverpunk meet our criteria? If we don't, then yes, we'll probably have endless debates about every suggestion.

If we agree on "established and emerging genres only", then Desert Punk is out, whether or not it has a page. If we agree that anything with a page is included, then Desert Punk goes in until someone takes it to repair shop and gets it renamed. In either case, though, we don't have to try to decide that page's ultimate fate here and now.

Of course, the way things are going, it looks like we'll need a crowner to decide. The only reason I haven't already made a crowner is that I want to make sure I'm not leaving out some options people would like.

@54: I think the first two of those options look good, although I would avoid the third one (if only because it might make people want to index The Quincy Punk on it ).

edited 29th Mar '18 3:17:57 PM by StarSword

Usually for genres, there are a bunch of setting elements, story types, moods, and other criteria that are followed to some degree. I think listing what those are and then requiring the entries to follow most of them would work. Genres are loose compared to regular tropes, so having any fixed requirements wouldn't be appropriate.

So I'm confused.

Is the proposal for Punk Punk "make it a page listing genres that arbitrarily have 'punk' in the name"? Is that not just a search-based index based on the (admittedly inexplicable) fact that -punk has turned into a synonym for "genre"?

IMO the essence of the "punk" genre are about mash ups for their science fiction settings and mixing in modern elements usually sharing the same kind of themes.

edited 29th Mar '18 8:07:40 PM by Memers

I don't think it's necessarily the mash-up that makes it, but the exploitative and harsh nature of technology. However, mixing technology levels highlights it as significant in the setting, which is a point. Technology is important.

The same goes for society. It's exploitative, harsh, or otherwise oppressive, and the stories are more down to earth about the people (in that vein it's more comparable to Low Fantasy than High Fantasy). The protagonists are usually rebels of some kind, or merely trying to survive. In more optimistic settings, such as in the shinier versions of Steampunk, they're adventurers.

I think as a genre only cyberpunk and steampunk are broad enough to count. The rest are setting tropes about the aesthetics of technology.

edited 30th Mar '18 9:12:15 AM by VarangianBard

I would put Wasteland Punk and Post-Cyberpunk in the list with those two but agreed.

edited 30th Mar '18 9:19:58 AM by Memers

Post-Cyberpunk isn't actually a Punk genre. It's closely related (as the name implies), so it probably fits on the page, though.

Anyway, what's actually required for a genre to be on Punk Punk? Leaving aside what the individual Punk or non-Punk genres actually qualify as, what defines Punk Punk that we can use to qualify or disqualify the individual genres?

I just think we should go with ' Speculative Fiction settings and genres that mix technology elements and ideas of a specific eras or fantasy concepts usually sharing the same kinds of visuals, locations, costume design and art design. In specific cases they also share themes.'

That's what all the established punk tropes are and my angle for the whole Wasteland Punk vs The Apunkalypse thing as while works like Akira are post-apocalyptic with a degree of lawlessness they really do not fit absolutely anything else.

edited 30th Mar '18 11:10:36 AM by Memers

That's basically what we have now. I thought we had made progress by categorizing them as either cyberpunk or steampunk derivatives and creating more specific definitions for each. Is that not what we are doing anymore?

I was just answering Another Duck 's question

I have difficulties seeing the difference between Sword And Sandals and Sandal Punk (as currently written). What's the punk factor here?

Sandal Punk is sci-fi / fantasy roman / greek era stuff. You got gods, robots and other stuff with Greek or Roman architecture.

The other one is just everything set in that era of history.

edited 28th Apr '18 11:21:30 PM by Memers

Sandal Punk seems to include a bunch of stuff just because it's ancient Greek, Roman, or Middle Eastern. Which is Sword and Sandal.

That seems like a legit distinction to me, but there's nothing about that in the description and only one example (Atlantis The Lost Empire) really seems to actually fit.

Apparently, the inflated use of the word Punk in trope names has lead to a watering down of the concept. So where are we now in this discussion?

I stand by my deffinition in post 60

For Sandal Punk it would be things like Disney's Hercules which was Greek settings but with gods, robots or Rube Goldberg Machine and occasionally clockwork punk styled creatures.

edited 30th Apr '18 3:49:29 AM by Memers

What sets it apart from Anachronism Stew?

The specificness of each genre really. Working backwards the genres will throw in modern (at the time) elements and ideas where they arnt supposed to be and working forward the sense of style is completely devoid of Technology Marches On unless the work is specifically going for that Retraux.

Going through some of the setting genres

• Clockwork Punk is Renaissance to Industrial Revolution era in its aesthetics and such with Da Vinci inspired Clockwork Automatons and other clock tech, occasionally having the clockwork revolution replace the industrial one.
• Steampunk is Victorian or Industrial Era however the Industrial Revolution is typically replaced with a Steam Revolution or they are fighting each other at the same time.
• Atompunk is 50s era raygun sci-fi, Flash Gordon and the like, usually more optimistic than the others fitting the era they were made. Heavy use of the outdated atomic symbol is required.
• Formicapunk is 70s and 80s sci-fi with tapes and tv screens with primitive CG on them and such.
• Cyberpunk not too far into the future cybernetics, VR and such. This one is the most mainstream out of all of them, being the first, and is further defined by its Dystopic society usually with a stereotype plot of evil corporations vs the rebel heroes plotline and/or technology abuse is bad. If the work was made in the 80s it might overlap with Formicapunk in the way its portrayed.

edited 30th Apr '18 11:00:09 AM by Memers