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Misused (Alt names crowner 8/2/2017): Lolicon

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SeptimusHeap PCNA from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
PCNA
Feb 9th 2017 at 1:45:59 AM

Nobody has a name suggestion? sad

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Feb 9th 2017 at 1:55:28 AM

Umm we had a few suggested names umm Comedic Lolicon was something I suggested, let me add it.

Feb 9th 2017 at 8:20:30 AM

Well, I suggested a few that were pretty descriptive. Should I go ahead and add those?

SeptimusHeap PCNA from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
PCNA
Feb 9th 2017 at 8:23:52 AM

Sure, although I caution against names like Comedic Pedophile as they can incite trouble.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Feb 9th 2017 at 8:26:23 AM

Well, that's why I didn't add them to begin with.

Edit: Added, but I have to say I don't really like either one myself.

edited 9th Feb '17 8:27:34 AM by Arha

SeptimusHeap PCNA from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
PCNA
Feb 9th 2017 at 9:08:02 AM

I've voted up Comedic Lolicon solely because it seems to be the only name that marks this clearly a Japanese trope.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Feb 9th 2017 at 9:51:27 AM

I disliked that name at first, but come to think of it I guess it would address at least some of the misuse where people apply the trope to serious characters.

By the way, where will we be redirecting the Lolicon page? Comedic Lolicon or whatever we go with or the Shotacon And Lolicon definition page?

SeptimusHeap PCNA from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
PCNA
Feb 9th 2017 at 10:21:20 AM

Definition page, as it refers to the trope.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Feb 9th 2017 at 12:18:11 PM

In that case, I think people are just going to start sending links to the wrong place.

SeptimusHeap PCNA from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
PCNA
Feb 9th 2017 at 1:09:31 PM

Disambiguation also works, although it means having to maintain additional pages.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Theatre_Maven_3695 Part Fire Nation, apparently from Ontario, Canada Relationship Status: Charming Titania with a donkey face
Part Fire Nation, apparently
Feb 9th 2017 at 1:47:52 PM

[up]x7 Not just can, will. Google pulled ads over a trope name referencing a semi-obscure Japanese fetish; imagine what they'll do over pedo-apologia magnets like those (as I mentioned before, both of those names are the equivalent of resurrecting All Pedophiles Are Child Molesters, and almost certainly a one-way ticket to a third Google Incident.

Berrenta A chill in the air... from Texas Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
A chill in the air...
Feb 19th 2017 at 10:06:44 AM

Bumping for votes; one option in the green, but with an inadequate number of votes cast on it.

Berrenta A chill in the air... from Texas Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
A chill in the air...
Mar 12th 2017 at 7:39:11 AM

Another nudge for votes; we still need a few more cast on the leader to call.

Mar 12th 2017 at 7:57:11 AM

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/img_1102.JPG
.

edited 12th Mar '17 3:34:02 PM by Memers

Mar 12th 2017 at 9:00:07 AM

*snerk* That'd make a great page pic.

MarqFJA Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus
Mar 12th 2017 at 2:21:31 PM

Agreed. [lol] Which anime is it from, incidentally?

On a side note, I think there was this anime where a father gets routinely Mistaken for Pedophile due to his homely appearance (I think he was rather fat and ugly-faced by "conventional" standards) in contrast to his cute daughter(s) and his own behavior (I think he was rather overenthusiastic in his fatherly affection); basically, people have a hard time wrapping their heads around the idea that a guy like him could be related to that girl, let alone be her biological father. Maybe we could get a pic from there if the above doesn't prove to be sufficiently well-received?

When we are crushing the black hearts of our oppressors, we will find our hands blackened.
Mar 12th 2017 at 4:04:08 PM

Its from THE iDOLM@STER: Cinderella Girls.

[up]And that anime you are thinking of is Mitsudomoe and it was more Face of a Thug, the Lolicon jokes are directed at the teacher.

edited 12th Mar '17 4:04:43 PM by Memers

Theatre_Maven_3695 Part Fire Nation, apparently from Ontario, Canada Relationship Status: Charming Titania with a donkey face
Part Fire Nation, apparently
Mar 25th 2017 at 4:41:33 PM

Bump. This has been stale for almost two weeks; where are we on this?

Berrenta MOD A chill in the air... from Texas Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
A chill in the air...
Mar 25th 2017 at 9:27:34 PM

Winner's got 15 total votes, so we can call this in favor of Comedic Lolicon.

SeptimusHeap PCNA from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
PCNA
Mar 26th 2017 at 2:38:43 AM

I've done the page moving and index moving; leaving the two groups of wicks however as I don't have time.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Theatre_Maven_3695 Part Fire Nation, apparently from Ontario, Canada Relationship Status: Charming Titania with a donkey face
Part Fire Nation, apparently
Mar 26th 2017 at 3:19:50 AM

Lolicon alone has over 1000 wicks, and the Shotacon redirect has over 600. Is that Short Term Material, or can it stay over here?

MarqFJA Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
SeptimusHeap PCNA from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
PCNA
Mar 26th 2017 at 3:51:42 AM

^^It needs someone to do the work, obviously. The exact forum is a minor issue.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
SeptimusHeap PCNA from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
PCNA
Aug 5th 2017 at 1:49:56 PM

OK, started the work. There are a few wicks to lolicon where I want second opinions on:

Overall it seems like that "lolicon" and also "shotacon" are used as by-words for "paedophilia"; probably as an euphemism and due to our scattershot troping of the topic. My sense is that all non-clear-cut wicks should be removed.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
MarqFJA Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus
Aug 5th 2017 at 4:26:37 PM

First off, we have to remember that in Japan, high school-age girls qualify for "if you're an adult and are sexually attracted to a girl of this age, then you're a pedophile" as much as prepubescent girls do.

With that dealt with, I'll try to give feedback on as many items as possible.

WMG.Azumanga Daioh: Lolicon is mentioned several times both with and without a link. Is this an example of Comedic Lolicon, mere paedophilia or something else?
Since it's referring to the character Kimura, I'd say it's Comedic Lolicon. The guy could very well be the poster boy for the character type.

Better Than It Sounds.Anime And Manga A To C: The sentence "high school lolicon" reads like we are dealing with shoehorning here; is that really an example of either Comedic Lolicon or Lolicon and Shotacon?
It's referring to the male protagonist, who is in high school. According to the female protagonist, his future self will invent a form of immortality in the future that prevents women from aging after 12 years of age (creating "a pedophile's world", as one character comments); this implies that the guy has pedophiliac urges that either have yet to overtly manifest in the present, or only develop after failing to get a girlfriend his age. Either way, IIRC he gets accused of being a lolicon on account of that supposed future (we only have the angel characters' word for it), with him always denying it.

That being said, I'm not sure if it's subverted case of Comedic Lolicon, a zig-zagging example of Mistaken for Pedophile, or something else.

Artistic Age: Three citations, one of which I have edited. Also two in non-link form.
The Revolutionary Girl Utena example seems to be more of Unfortunate Implications caused by the way the Artistic Age trope is applied — that is, Nanami looks so much older than she actually is that her interest in a boy merely a few years younger than her makes her look like she's a pedophile in the eyes of an uninformed viewer, and even informed ones may be quite discomforted despite their knowledge of the truth. Thus it's a meta form of Mistaken for Pedophile.

The Lucky Star example is in a similar situation, only it's the readers/viewers who may be Mistaken for Pedophile.

Memetic Molester.Anime And Manga: Several citations in non-link form, some of which I've edited. Again asking what rewrite would be suited.
The Bleach examples... I'm not really sure about them.

Shunsui is several centuries older than Nanao, who is barely a century old... not that you'd know it from looking at either of them, save for the fact that Nanao is shown as a child in a flashback chapter taking place about a hundred years before the present time. Modern-day Nanao looks like a young adult, BTW.

Starrk and Lilynette's case... Well, about the only thing that I think would give the impression that Starrk is a lolicon is that when she's in gun form, he punishes her for talking back at him by rubbing the part of the gun that corresponds to her butt. Otherwise, it's Lilynette's design that has lolicon vibes, given her rather young appearance (middle school-like in height and petite build) and Stripperiffic manner of dress.

You may be better served by asking the guys at the Bleach thread for input on both of the aforementioned cases, IMO.

The Gundam example seems alright, though.

Cute Bruiser.Anime And Manga: Is this entry speculating that a real person is a lolicon?
Ah, no, it appears to be referring to the character who created her. It does begin with describing her as a robot girl, after all.

Cloudcuckoolander.Anime And Manga: Sounds like an example of Comedic Lolicon.
Kimura from Azumanga Daioh? Yeah, definitely. The guy is practically harmless, and the fact that he's Happily Married to a non-loli wife casts doubt both in and out of universe over whether his attraction to high school girls is genuinely sexual.

Character Gush.Anime And Manga: Aside from one citation, there is a mention of "loli" which needs processing.
The Naze Turbine one, you mean? It's just referring to a somewhat "stereotypical" composition of harems in the Harem Genre, where among other things, it should have at least on Tsundere and one girl who is either more or less a child or so much younger than the harem protagonist that him going after her as a Love Interest option would make him a pedophile (or at least attract such accusations)note . Turbine's harem itself is, IINM, lacking in any such young girls.

Older Than They Look.Anime And Manga: There are a number of citations here, not sure what to do with each.
Mikuru Asashina's case seems to be painting her as an obvious target for older men to molest, which makes sense, given how unusually well-endowed she is for a 17-year-old Japanese girl. The title character of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya chose her club's members primarily on basis of fitting specific roles that she believes would benefit her club in some way or the other; that her logic can be nonsensical or even quite skeevy at times is actually part of her personality that male lead Kyon hangs a lampshade on, and "volunteering" Mikuru into the club on the sole basis of her being lolicon bait is definitely a case of her logic being skeevy. Oh, and Haruhi is implied to be bisexual from the moment she thoroughly gropes Mikuru's breasts during the latter's first scene in the story and almost drools while talking to Kyon about it afterwards (big-breasted girls are apparently her type).

The Welcome to the NHK example might be Comedic Lolicon, though someone who actually watched the show would be able to tell us if his "study materials" are Played for Laughs or not.

The Lucky Star example is, again, about the readers/viewers... except for Konata's School Swimsuit thing, Yutaka's complaint about being a loli-looking adolescent, and Konata informing her about the existence of pedophiles who might not mind the fact she's not really a child. Does Comedic Lolicon have room for treating pedophilia in general as comedic rather than a pedophiliac character as such?

Amazingly Embarrassing Parents: Comedic Lolicon or plain paedophilia?
Comedic Lolicon. The guy is Played for Laughs as much as almost anything does in Lucky Star.

Americans Hate Tingle: I recall that the use of the word "loli" for young girls is banned; here it is also a link, what should it display?
If you have something less clunky and technical-sounding than "child-aged/seeming manga/anime character who is either sexualized or sexually precocious" that isn't just "lolita" (the full form of "loli", which IINM is also banned from such usage), I'm all ears. This is one of the flaws I saw behind the ban: It doesn't give a decent alternative for describing what the term was invented for. Unless that is addressed, you will always find the term sneaking back into non-locked articles either out of ignorance or blatant defiance.

Soundtrack Dissonance.Anime: Another link that displays as "loli".
Just change it to "likes girls" and pothole that to whatever trope we have that serves the role of "this character is immoral because s/he is a pedophile".

Characters.Absolute Despair Girls: Is that really a deconstruction, and of Comedic Lolicon?
Given what's written in the entry, maybe.

Overall it seems like that "lolicon" and also "shotacon" are used as by-words for "paedophilia"; probably as an euphemism and due to our scattershot troping of the topic.
Well, yeah. The two terms do mean "female-targeting pedophile/pedophilia" and "male-targeting pedophile/pedophilia" in Japanese.

My sense is that all non-clear-cut wicks should be removed.
Do you mean merely de-wicking them, or removing the entire entry?

PS: How come we don't have Pedophilia Is A Special Kind Of Evil as a trope? We already have Rape Is a Special Kind of Evil and Slavery Is a Special Kind of Evil.

edited 5th Aug '17 4:27:12 PM by MarqFJA

When we are crushing the black hearts of our oppressors, we will find our hands blackened.

Alternative Titles: Loliconalsoincludingshotacon
8th Feb '17 2:17:32 AM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.
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