Condemned by History cleanup thread

Moving on to DeaderThanDisco.Literature:

• Genres
  • Anti-Tom Literature: Keep, although I favor rephrasing to remove the anachronistic and potentially inflammatory buzzword "social justice warriors." I really don't think that SJW was in the vocabulary of anyone who was around when anti-Tom literature was still a thing.
  • The industrial novel: Cut. No backlash.
  • "Young adult literature": Cut for bad Example Indentation / Examples Are Not General. The sub-bullets below it can live or die on their own merits; the general heading above them adds nothing.
  • "Elite high school girls": Keep.
  • Teen Paranormal Romance: Keep.
• Fiction books
  • The Clique: Cut or rewrite. Does not describe backlash, just obscurity.
  • Da Vinci Code: Cut. There's a new movie based on the series coming out in 2016, so it's not dead yet.
  • Point Horror: Cut. Describes obscurity, not backlash.
  • Maximum Ride: Cut. Describes obscurity, not backlash.
  • Babysitters Club: Cut: Describes obscurity, not backlash.
  • Twilight: Keep.
  • Cornish Trilogy: Cut. Too obscure, no initial popularity.
  • Nicholas Sparks: Cut. Romance novels and romance films are niche to begin with, and most people didn't blink when Sparks went out of fashion, so it fails the backlash test too.
• Non-Fiction:
  • History
    • Stephen Ambrose: Cut. Remember when screaming fangirls were going nuts over the latest presidential biography or WWII history? Me neither.
    • Edmund Burke: Cut. Ditto.
    • "The William Dunning School of historiography": Cut. Ditto.
    • The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: Cut. Ditto.
    • David Irving: Cut. Ditto.
  • Entertainment
    • Easy Riders, Raging Bulls: Cut. Reads as Complaining About Shows You Dont Like, doesn't describe initial inescapable popularity.
    • Donald Spoto: Cut. Who?
    • "Raising Kane": Cut. What?
    • From Caligari to Hitler: Cut. What?
    • Walt Disney: Hollywood's Dark Prince: Cut. What?
    • Wired: Cut. What?
    • Medved Brothers: Cut. Who?
  • Religion:
    • Michelle Remembers: Cut. What?
    • The Satan Seller: Cut. What?
    • Margaret Murray: Cut. Who?
  • Other:
    • Men Are From Mars, Women are From Venus: Cut. It was certainly popular enough when it was new, but the backlash against it isn't universal enough to qualify. Most people just kind of forgot it was a thing and moved on.
    • Cobb: Cut. Does not describe initial popularity or retroactive backlash.
    • Seduction of the Innocent: Quite possibly a valid example, but the entry is a stub that does a poor job of establishing it as one. Cut or rewrite.
    • A Million Little Pieces: Keep.
• In-Universe Examples:
  • Brown's Pine Ridge Stories and "Collecting turpentine": Cut. Has only the most tangential relationship to the trope.
  • Isaac Asimov's "Blind Alley" and fluoro-globes: Cut. Describes a fad that went out of fashion, but doesn't give a clear idea of whether it was either inescapably popular or the subject of backlash in-universe.
  • But What If We're Wrong: Keep.

edited 9th Nov '16 1:57:38 PM by HighCrate

The latest Da Vinci Code film is flopping hard, though.

Well, I did say "yet." (-: I'm pretty sure it will get there, but that's speculative. Let's give it some time.

I think there's a case for Maximum Ride because it was pretty popular among younger audiences for a while, but the fourth book destroyed its reputation. I don't really know enough to fix it though.

Do you think Mein Kampf qualifies? It's essentially the Birth Of A Nation of biographies.

• Adolf Hitler, the leader of the Nazi Party, wrote his autobiography Mein Kampf in prison after he was convicted of attempting to overthrow the Bavarian state government. After serving nine months, Hitler was released from prison and published Mein Kampf. The book expressed Hitler's beliefs and plans if he were to become the leader of Germany. The book became an instant bestseller after Hitler was elected the Führer of Germany.
  However, after Hitler's suicide in 1945, Germany banned all public display of Nazi material, and the Bavarian government acquired the copyright to Mein Kampf until the rights expired at the end of 2015, banning the book from reprints.^note The German copyright law allows a work to be protected until 70 years after its author dies.

edited 9th Nov '16 11:30:56 AM by AreYouTyler

Ah, finally a category where I'm actually fairly knowledgeable! :)

Genres:

• Anti-Tom books: keep.
• Industrial Novel: cut. Simply changing fashion/circumstances. Plus, modern variants are not uncommon, e.g. The Iron Dragon's Daughter, which mixes it with fantasy.
• YA: Don't think this is intended as an actual example. But certainly cut if it is! :)
  • Elite High School Girls: I'm not convinced the backlash affected older works. Mean Girls still seems to be popular. But this isn't a genre I've ever followed closely, so I'll say fence for now.
  • Paranormal Romance is doing great despite having been wounded by Twilight (which is mostly Peripheral Hatedom in any case). I personally know writers making good money in the field. It may have become slightly less popular in YA because of Twilight, but I don't see any actual evidence of that. Cut.

Books:

• The Clique: no evidence of backlash. Cut.
• Da Vinci Code: um...fence. I want this to be true, but I'm not convinced it is. I suspect the book is doing fine on backlist sales. There might be a stronger argument for the movie franchise. But this is about the book(s).
• Point Horror, Maximum Ride: Cut.
• Twilight: the series had a huge Peripheral Hatedom from day one, but I'm not seeing any evidence of a backlash among its fans! Yes, they've grown up and moved on, but that's not what this trope is about. Like the Mullet, this is a case where the hatedom is so noisy that it's easy to overlook the actual fans. And always has been. I'm leaning cut unless I hear some stronger arguments and maybe some actual evidence.
• Babysitters Club: Fence, leaning heavily towards cut. As far as I can tell, this is still fondly remembered. The Goodreads ratings suggest the same.
• The Cornish Trilogy: Rewrite to establish the required initial popularity or cut.
• Nicholas Sparks: cut.

Ugh, I need to take a break before diving into the next section.

edited 9th Nov '16 12:00:07 PM by Xtifr

With The Babysitters Club, I will say that it's a frequent butt of jokes in pop-culture. Any character who references it is portrayed as a nerd who grew up having no friends.

That's almost evidence against it being DTD. It's like the mullet—if the fans didn't exist, people wouldn't be so likely to mock them. :)

eta: I'm still going to stick with fence for now, though.

edited 9th Nov '16 12:18:11 PM by Xtifr

I'm on the fence for BSC as well. There are indeed snark communities dedicated to the series (mostly found on Live Journal) and the reissues of the books flopped pretty badly. On the other hand, I find it a Guilty Pleasure of mine and yeah, Goodreads rates it well.

Keep BSC.

DeaderThanDisco.Literature:

Genres

• Anti-Tom Literature: Keep and remove SJW ref.
• The industrial novel: Cut. Just seems to have fallen out of fashion.
• Young adult literature: Cut. Inconsistent formatting.
• Books about "elite" high school girls: Leaning cut. Too general, and probably not completely dead.
• Teen Paranormal Romance: Cut. Not dead. Just not massively popular.

Fiction books

• The Clique: Cut. Just faded out.
• The Da Vinci Code: Cut. Still popular enough.
• Point Horror: Cut. Fizzled out.
• Maximum Ride: Cut. Talks about later developments were impopular, not how the previous installments became retroactively mocked.
• The Baby-Sitters Club: Leaning cut.
• Twilight: Cut. Always had a massively vocal hatedom, but also still popular.
• The Cornish Trilogy: Fence, leaning cut.
• Nicholas Sparks: Cut. More about later works being unpopular than the previous one.

Non-fiction books

History

• Stephen Ambrose: Cut. About the person, not the works, and some works are still popular.
• Reflections on the Revolution in France: Cut. Widely read.
• The William Dunning School of historiography: Keep. Apparently popular enough to influence a bunch of works, and example seems legit.
• The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: Leaning cut. Still in print, and criticism seems mostly to come from historians, who're a minority.
• David Irving: Cut. About the person, and way too meandering description. And apparently still working.

Entertainment

• Easy Riders, Raging Bulls: Leaning keep. Not sure if popular enough.
• Donald Spoto: Cut. About the person.
• Orson Welles: Cut.
• From Caligari to Hitler: Fence.
• Walt Disney: Hollywood's Dark Prince: Fence.
• Wired: Leaning keep.
• The Medved Brothers' three books: Leaning cut. Example is weird.

Religion

• Michelle Remembers: Fence, leaning cut.
• The Satan Seller: Fence, leaning cut.
• Margaret Murray: Cut. Still partially acknolwedged.

Other

• Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus: Cut.
• Cobb: Cut for lacking context.
• Seduction Of The Innocent: Cut or rewrite.
• A Million Little Pieces: Cut. If it's still sold, it's not quite dead.

Fictional and non-fictional examples

• Browns Pine Ridge Stories: Cut.
• Blind Alley: Cut. Not quite an example.
• But What If We're Wrong?: Keep.

I don't think Mein Kampf qualifies. It's frequently been cited as being worth to read for certain subject, if you know what you're reading.

Analysis of the next batch of literature for me:

Non-Fiction:

• Stephen Ambrose. Very nearly makes a good case, but if his older works are still popular, then it doesn't qualify. Cut.
• Reflections on the Revolution in France: no longer taken seriously, but still widely read. Cut.
• William Dunning School of historiography. This doesn't actually seem to be describing a work. In fact, I'm not quite sure what it is. Still it makes a strong case. I need to think about this, so, for now, I'll say Fence, leaning keep.
• The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: "older book on history no longer as well-respected as it used to be and some scholars disagree" is probably a sentence you can apply to just about any older book on history. As written, strong cut.
• David Irving. Great ghu, what a wall of words! I honestly can't tell if there's a case there or not. Reduced to self-publishing might qualify, but as it stands, I have to say: rewrite or cut.

Entertainment:

• Easy Riders, Raging Bulls: leaning keep.
• Donald Spoto: rambling example focused on the person, not the work(s). Rewrite or cut.
• Orson Wells: pfff. cut.
• From Caligari to Hitler: cut for the reasons cited on Rise and Fall of the Third Reich above.
• Walt Disney: Hollywood's Dark Prince: doesn't establish initial popularity. Rewrite or cut.
• Wired: leaning keep.
• Medved Brothers: I'm not entirely sure what this is trying to say, but it doesn't sound like DTD to me. Rewrite or cut.

Religion:

• Michelle Remembers: if this really is the book that kicked off the Satanic Panic, then I'm leaning keep.
• The Satan Seller: ditto. I've even heard of this one.
• Margaret Murray: another one I'm vaguely familiar with. Scholars were always skeptical of her ideas, but she did have some mainstream(ish) popularity. My parents had one or two of her books. And there was sort of a backlash. But I think it was a bit of a tempest in a teapot. Fence for now.

Other:

• Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus: I don't think anyone ever mistook it for anything but pop psychology. Cut.
• Cobb: no case presented. Rewrite or cut.
• Seduction Of The Innocent: there was never really a backlash—in fact, the ideas are still around. I don't think that qualifies. Cut.
• A Million Little Pieces: if it's still selling, now labeled as fiction, it's not DTD. Cut.

Fictional/Non-Fictional

Huh. I need to think about this whole section. I'll try to come up with some opinions, but don't feel you have to wait for me.

Added a couple entries to video games (Mascot with Attitude) and Sports (baseball curses, performance enhancing drugs).

The first one is already deleted, and for a good reason. Not an example.

The drugs one probably qualifies.

The curses ones do not. An alledged curse about some team not winning if everyone tried to hide they believed it in the first place. If people say that the curse is broken, they acknowledge that it was there, which makes it not an example. Should I just delete those two examples, or wait for consensus?

In addition to being misused on the main pages, I feel that this trope is also being misused on the YMMV pages for works. For example, this entry on the YMMV page for Paper Mario: Sticker Star:

Deader Than Disco: Believe it or not, this game had plenty of defenders back when it was released, not unlike Super Paper Mario. However, the latter has since been Vindicated by History thanks to having a complex storyline and memorable characters like the first game and The Thousand-Year Door in spite of its different gameplay. Sticker Star on the other hand has become a lot more hated in the following years due to lacking that and more, to the point that nowadays it's treated as the point where the series jumped the shark and most fans would rather pretend the series stopped after Super Paper Mario. It went From Bad to Worse as of the announcement of Color Splash, which was initially met VERY poorly by the fanbase in no small part thanks to reusing a bunch of elements from Sticker Star. And even after the backlash softened a bit, the game's still very polarizing due to it following Sticker Star's formula and keeping some of its glaring flaws, like the Thing weakness system or the excessive amount of generic Toads.

In order for something to qualify for this trope, it had to have been universally liked, then universally reviled. There has been a lot of backlash towards Sticker Star since it was first released. The backlash may have increased since then, but it isn't Deader Than Disco since it was never universally liked to begin with. As much as I dislike Sticker Star, I feel that this trope is just being used as an excuse to complain about the game and it does not qualify as an example.

Yeah, that seems like a hatedom from the start.

Yeah, there's going to be a lot of wick cleaning to do once the example subpages are sorted.

I just skim through this thread, but it seem tropers' verdict is that creator's personal life is not factor when consider DTD, right?

So this should be remove, right? (from Anime And Manga)

Vic is still voicing many popular anime. So cut.

Done.

While I understand removing Prequel trilogy as a whole, shouldn't Phantom Menace be an example? It seems to perfectly fit all the criteria. It was massively popular with both critics and fans, only to become a complete joke later. And even prequel defenders seem to focus on the latter two installments, so I think it's safe to say that its status remains.

Also, regarding the discussion over changing the name of the trope, I fail to see the point of making it clear it is inversion of Vindicated by History when it really isn't anymore. Not unless we change the criteria for VBH to mean "widely hated at first, but eventually became universally loved to the point mentioning your dislike of it would likely result in immediate backlash from fans".

It's not that dead.

This is not true in my experience - I've seen people argue more than once that it's the best of the prequels and closest to the feel of the original Star Wars trilogy. There's absolutely not enough consensus to list it as Deader Than Disco.

Not only that, but the backlash for Episode 1 didn't start later. It began as soon as people started coming out of the theaters at the premiere.

I didn't go see the premiere of Ep. 1, because, despite being a huge SF fan, I'm only a moderate SW fan. By the next day, the online reviews and chatter had convinced me to wait for the home video release.

Really? I've heard more than once that the reaction at first was very much positive. I mean, even before the movies came out, Twilight had plenty of critics.

You know, at this point we might as well make an actual inversion trope for VBH, since there are so many examples, yet so very few that would also qualify as DTD.