Condemned by History cleanup thread

I think with this trope, either you have too few examples, or you have to relax the criteria (perhaps a rename) a bit.

As for Donkey Kong 64, its reception has definitely declined from its release.

It seems that Condemned by History and Vindicated by History have uneven criteria. Metacritic-wise comparison, the former would need at least 35 points off metacritic score while the latter seems to only have its metacritic score raised by 15-20, if my imperfect comparison would make sense.

Edited by artman40 on May 13th 2024 at 5:38:17 AM

The criteria was relaxed, and it was renamed.

DK 64 still has people who like it. And its not really seen as bad even by most of its detractors.

if we did an entry for a game having any drop in popularity the page would get way too bloated.

Though if we are going reappraise any games qualifying I really do feel like Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels should count

I don't think Lost Levels was ever considered good by the majority. The only allure to it was that it never left Japan because it was considered too hard, and once the west got their hands on it, the "too hard" justification seemed entirely fair to them because of how brutal it is. Even Shigeru Miyamoto wasn't proud of it.

Would it be accurate to put Yandere Simulator down as such? The game has more or less self-destructed in reputation over the last five years, and practically no one seems willing to consider themselves fans of the project.

I feel like it's more OBC given the thing was never even finished. Unless people are saying the premise/gameplay was never that good to begin with it sounds like people just gave up on it because of the long Development Hell and the creator's actions.

That is a common consensus - people often point out the many questionable decisions both from a design and creative standpoint to note how the game even back then was more of a novelty made popular off Lets Players and streamers reacting to the game, rather than its actual quality.

Under that lens, I would say it qualifies.

Side note, but are we in agreement that maybe American Beauty isn't entirely condemned by modern audiences and could be reworked as a case of Critical Dissonance?

I agree.

Judging from looking at the opinions and what people are saying I am n agreement;

Using the entry on the film's YMMV page, I'll attempt to reword it.

• Critical Dissonance: The film was a huge hit on its 1999 release with both critics and audiences, winning the Best Picture Oscar in what is still acknowledged as a monumental year for Hollywood. However, within 10 years, critics begun reassessing it, and in The New '10s, it has made more than a few "most overrated" film lists, especially after #MeToo, as the storyline with Lester and Angela began to seem too problematic to overlook the way most critics had in 1999; it didn't help at all that Lester's actor Kevin Spacey had also been the subject of several allegations that he had molested young men. By contrast, while audiences initially had similar issues with the film as critics did, The New '20s and the COVID-19 Pandemic saw audience opinions of the film have a turnaround, as while the premise is still acknowledged as being rather controversial, the themes of finding beauty in the mundane and doing what makes you personally happy have become more topical by the years. As of 2024, while critical scores have waned to the mid-to-low 80% range, the film holds a respectable audience score of 93% on Rotten Tomatoes, with most audience reviews post-2020 showing admiration for the film.

Edited by RWBYraikou888 on May 18th 2024 at 11:38:07 AM

Not commenting on the validity of the change either way this reads like a Popularity Polynomial entry. Maybe it would be a better fit for that?

Edited by Glowsquid on May 18th 2024 at 9:21:41 AM

I guess it could work like that, too, though the main thing I wanted to denote was how audience reception went back up, while critical reception still isn't favorable.

I wouldn't put Yandere Simulator on CbH, the very premise was always alienating to most audiences and ensured it would be niche at best, so it was never that widely praised. I also get the impression from some of YanDev's videos that he had a viable vision for the gameplay; the problem is his bad programming skills and refusal to delegate. While his fanbase has turned against him, it's more about him and the game's lack of progress than anything in the game itself.

Good ideas doesn't equal good execution. And even though the premise is somewhat Niche, I doubt it was anymore too controversial a premise to count than, say, Grand Theft Auto. I haven't played it (and have no desire to), but if people are saying that the game he was making was never that good, than I think it could qualify.

I found that somebody "sneaked" (as in, deliberately commented out) this example for Friday Night Funkin' — while it's still in production and it's been less than 5 years since it was initially uploaded, and the example itself seems to be complaining more about mod creators than the actual game itself. Can I delete it for violating No Recent Examples, Please!?

• Friday Night Funkin' was considered as one of the best games back in the time of it's release, to the point that FNF was considered to be the one that revitalizes/revives the rhythm game genre, but it all started to go downhill when Sky gets cancelled and Amor being outed as a pedophile (which the latter was previously called out for when he was in the Geometry Dash fandom), the fandom gets more toxic and toxic and more mod makers started to get accused for controversy (mostly revolving sexual harassment), nowadays the community is quite small now, as everyone else could call this game as "that one rhythm game that's infamous for a fandom of pedophiles".

I think that adding pre-commented out examples isn't allowed under any circumstance, so yeah, cut that. (Several subpages of So Bad, It's Horrible had a note added to their page fairly recently asking people not to "sneak in" examples like this, since that was happening with an example that kept being added too soon.)

I don't know much about the game, but I know that it's only been about 3 years since it was first released, so I agree it's too soon to be Condemned by History (my first thought upon seeing that entry was "Didn't that game just come out?"). It almost sounds like an Overshadowed by Controversy example, but I don't know if any of the controversies mentioned in that entry actually overshadow the game or its mod creators/community as of right now.

Also, the entry has several grammatical/formatting errors.

I’d say FNF is still popular in the fandom with people still making mods even if they respect the creator leas

FNF definitely isn’t CBD, even if its popularity has significantly waned. I’ll admit, I myself do think of it as “the rhythm game with an absurd number of pedophiles and grooming scandals in its fandom” nowadays, but I don’t think it’s OBC either.

FNF does not count, in my opinion.

Frankly, I can't help but think if this trope should be given the same treatment as So Bad, It's Horrible and put on Darth Wiki due to blatant Flame Bait and constant misuse/abuse.

Edited by DukeNukem4ever on May 20th 2024 at 7:09:08 AM

TBH, I agree with it.

I fail to see how moving it to the Darth Wiki will stop misues

Agreed. SBIH is already in Darth Wiki and has plenty of misuse, such as the additions of offensive works and The Moral Substitute that are popular with the target audience for both types of works. SBIH does not allow the addition of works that are popular with their intended audience, even offensive works and The Moral Substitute.

Thus, putting CBH there would not stop misuse by much.

Edited by Nen_desharu on May 20th 2024 at 11:09:56 AM