Misused: Weird Moon

I came on to add an example about a work that used only a full moon, and found a YKTTW from two years ago: The Moon Is Always Full.

The trouble seems to be that Weird Moon is being used for anything related to the moon. Looking at the examples in the "Films - Live Action" folder, there's examples of That's No Moon, Total Eclipse of the Plot, Full Moon Silhouette, and Deface of the Moon. Also several examples of "the moon is only shown full" like I was looking for.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Given that the description of Weird Moon has three categories of ways the moon can be weird and that several of the bullet points under the categories can be stand alone tropes, I think that there should be more sub-tropes made. It would help clear the page up. As it is, Weird Moon almost reads like a Weird Moon Index, but with trope definitions instead of trope titles. It's like a case of Missing Subtrope with Weird Moon being the Supertrope.

Missing Subtropes I can think of just by reading the description:

The Moon Is Always Full

Gigantic Moon - when Earth's moon takes up too much space in the sky

The rest of the bullet points look like they're describing tropes that already have their own pages, so a bunch of examples should be moved.

Other stuff:

The Real Life section reads like a mini The Moon article (how can this stuff qualify for Weird Moon if it's Normal Moon ?). All examples from it should probably be moved to The Moon.

A wick clean-up really needs to happen as so many of the examples list other moon sub-tropes as part of their examples.

edited 28th Jul '14 10:41:12 AM by ObsidianFire

I've wondered for a long time why Weird Moon is so broad. I would split off some subtropes.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Such an effort probably has implications for Artsy Moon (also in TRS). It could go from anemic duplicate to useful subtrope, depending on how its parent is divvied up.

I'm generally in agreement with ~Obsidian Fire's opinion. Cleaning the trope page is something we can reasonably do without further discussion, splitting examples off are things we cannot.

Do we want to simply declare Weird Moon is the supertrope for all "moon tropes", promoting it's importance on The Moon and Index on the Moon?

From the definition, eclipses should be completely removed from the trope, since that's covered by Total Eclipse of the Plot.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I took a look at the Index on the Moon and the definition of Weird Moon. It seems to me that the following sections of the Weird Moon page already have trope pages and should be removed, or at the very least, linked with their trope pages. Any examples that are those tropes should probably be moved too the right trope pages as well.

• The crescent moon is often depicted in a stylized, unrealistic manner with the horns of the crescent extending an average of three-quarters of a circle. (In Real Life, they always end at opposite ends of a diameter). Likewise, the inner (dark) part of the crescent is often circular in shape (which in Real Life only occurs if something eclipses the moon).
  • The crescent can sometimes point incorrectly for the hemisphere it's observed from, i.e. contrary to the position of the sun.

This sounds like Artsy Moon.

• There can be objects (such as stars) visible inside the crescent; in Real Life this can only occur if there's something on the moon's surface emitting light, or if something else is between the moon and viewer. Or, you know, if something shot a huge chunk out of it.
  • If the characters actually realize this, it usually becomes an important plot point.

Anything that involves holes though the moon is most likely Deface of the Moon. I don't know if we have a trope about something being on the moon.

• The moon's lunar phases always seem to coincide with important plot moments. For example, when The Hero and heroine have won the day, expect a full moon that night so they can sit back and enjoy the romantic mood lighting it casts upon them. The same goes for the Melancholy Moon upon which characters sit and wistfully ruminate upon.

This is usually Total Eclipse of the Plot or Melancholy Moon. We could probably also find enough examples for a Romantic Moon trope.

• Solar eclipses can occur during any phase of the moon and are always total eclipses, never partial. In Real Life a solar eclipse can only occur during a new moon, when the moon and sun are in relatively close proximity in the sky. During the actual eclipse, the moon will slowly move to obscure the sun, then slow its orbit and block out the sun for however long the plot requires (sometimes entire days) before moving on.
  • Its opposite, the lunar eclipse, either does not exist or is an explicit sign of evil forces at work.

Another Total Eclipse of the Plot reference that probably shouldn't be on this page to begin with.

• The lunar phase affects people's moods way more than is really likely.

Lunacy anyone?

I'll take a look though the examples and see if the ones that are of already established tropes are on those tropes' pages. Also, I assume this trope only comes into play when it's Earth's moon. What should we do with examples that are of non-earth moons?

I think having Weird Moon as a supertrope to the moon being weird one way or another is a good idea. That would also mean moving everything that's a subtrope to those tropes (unless maybe if it's an example that spans several subtropes). And I'm fine with it being very broad. Otherwise I think we'd have some misuse with Missing Supertrope Syndrome, since we wouldn't have moon tropes for everything. Well, maybe, since I've not checked the wicks.

I don't think how the moon affects people should go here, since that's more about how people have different reactions to the moon, rather than the moon itself affecting them (which may be a hard an arbitrary line to draw, but it's how I see it, since it's the people being weird, not the moon), and stuff that looks like the moon but isn't isn't the trope either.

I also made a post in the Artsy Moon TRS about what I think fits there.

edited 2nd Aug '14 9:59:03 PM by AnotherDuck

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When I suggested making this trope "supertrope for all moon tropes", I do actually intend non-Earth moons to be included in this umbrella. The moons of Mars would be "weird" to audiences of today.

Although, if there's already a trope for "Two suns = alien planet", then "two moons = alien planet" could probably be merged into it. I'm not sure what other non-earth moons you're talking about.

Another Duck (re: Lunacy) Although most of the examples are "people change internally in reaction to the moon", the trope does not exclude the idea of "the moon is an active force of change in the world". Here's an example where the moons are actively affecting things:

• In the Dragonlance setting, arcane magic is governed by the three moons Solinari, Lunitari, and Nuitari (and the deities of the same names). Solinari is silver, Lunitari is red and Nuitari is black. The last governs evil magic, and is, for obvious reasons, really hard to see.

edited 3rd Aug '14 12:36:54 PM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I don't see what your point is.

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The three moons affect how powerful their symbolic magics are. When the Silver moon is full, Good magic is empowered. When the Red moon is new, Neutral magic is crippled.

That's not people reacting to the moon, that's the moon actively affecting people (and magic).

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Yes?

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(which may be a hard and arbitrary line to draw, but it's how I see it, since it's the people being weird, not the moon) - Another Duck

Then you're okay with lunacy staying on the index?

edited 3rd Aug '14 6:36:22 PM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

On Index on the Moon, you mean? I've not had any trouble with that at all. I was talking about Weird Moon, which isn't an index.

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Ah, sorry. We got our communication confused. My proposal is that Weird Moon becomes the supertrope, and all the subtropes are listed on Index on the Moon (no need to duplicate the list). "Weird Moon" would also be listed.

The definition, as supertrope, would be "The things that fictional moons do that The Moon doesn't actually do."

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More productively, what other tropes do people think would be valuable splits from Weird Moon? I've already nominated "Always Full Moon" and "Two Moons" (the latter might redirect to "Two Suns" if that already has a page).

edited 24th Aug '14 1:13:03 PM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Both those tropes have plenty of examples on the Weird Moon page already, so they shouldn't be that hard to launch.

I'd say a trope for when the moon simply doesn't follow the phases it should follow is needed. Always Full Moon works for a full moon, but there's several examples of the moon being shown as only full or as a crescent or simply changing phases. Phase Locked Moon or Out Of Phase Moon for all "wrong phase" examples maybe?

Another one that often comes up is how when the moon is drawn in a crescent phase, the "horns" of the crescent are usually drawn elongated. I'm thinking all of these should be moved to Artsy Moon, especially if that's the only thing that's weird about the moon.

And I'm assuming the "Real Life" section will be moved...

Two Moons (or Two Suns) would go under Alien Sky, wouldn't it?

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Well, two moons isn't necessarily weird as just alien, so probably. Unless there are two moons here on Earth. And we're not talking about Kid Icarus: Uprising

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Binary Suns is the specific trope for worlds with two stars.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Re: Real Life examples — most likely. The first one (moon illusion) is a legit example, although that might be a different trope. The rest are all trivia-type information about eclipses and satellites.

I like the idea of "phases aren't consistent" trope to cover works/examples similar to Always Full Moon (but which include other phases). Moon Out Of Phase?

It sounds like you're proposing Artsy Moon covers crescent horns and reverse crescent horns. Should Artsy Moon be restricted to that? I think just depicting the/a moon/satellite with horns (usually via double circle method) counts as a valid trope by itself.

Since we already have Binary Suns, I think examples with moons should go there. Several examples on the page already show multiple moons.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I don't think Artsy Moon should be restricted to just crescents. I just didn't think there were enough examples on the Weird Moon page that were simply "the crescent is drawn wrong" to warrant it's own trope page. If there's enough tropes for it to be a trope in itself then by all means make a trope page for it.

Moon Out Of Phase sounds better then my names do.

If we decided to stick double moons on the Binary Suns page, we should probably rename it so that it's more obvious that double moons go their too. Although given how that page is set up it might just be better to make a Binary Moons page.

To get the ball rolling, I've decided to start a YKTTW for Moon Out Of Phase, as most people agree that one could really use it's own trope.

Edit: and here's the TKTTW link: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=li6bxng78gvqt8q2io5jvlu6

edited 5th Sep '14 8:30:34 AM by ObsidianFire

I posted in the YKTTW against having a sub-trope for "Moon out of phase". It's the moon, being weird, so it's Weird Moon.

Looking at the page, I'd say that examples relating to Total Eclipse of the Plot should definitely be excised. Honestly, there doesn't seem to be a lot of difference to me between Weird Moon and Artsy Moon. Is there a distinction there, or are those tropes both describing the Moon being depicted in fictional works in unrealistic ways?

By that logic, Total Eclipse of the Plot is just the moon being weird, so it's Weird Moon, and should be merged.

I think Weird Moon is a suitable supertrope to Total Eclipse of the Plot, Artsy Moon, and Moon Out Of Phase.

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Not sure where you get that from. Total Eclipse of the Plot does not require the Moon to be portrayed in an odd-looking or unusual way.

Weird Moon: "Depictions of the moon in fiction vary, and it can behave rather ... oddly....For weird moons caused by artistic stylization, see Artsy Moon."

Artsy Moon: "The Moon is shown in a bizarre or altered way - either because of actual physical changes, or simple Artistic License."

Those are the same trope. Merge.

Uh, no. The problem we are having with Weird Moon is that the description has several subtropes in it (some of which are tropes we already have) which leads to the examples being an uncategorized mess. All the examples on Moon Out Of Phase are from the Weird Moon page as it is. And I even stuck a note at the bottom that explains that the YKTTW is being made for this thread.

The definition of Weird Moon can be summed up as: anytime the moon doesn't act like it does in Real Life.

edited 5th Sep '14 9:15:29 AM by ObsidianFire