Named after a work: Muppet

Muppets is a trademarked term referring specifically to The Muppets as created by Jim Henson and now owned by Disney. That and the articles only have the definite article "the" separating them. How about we call the trope something like say... puppets? Marionettes?

To make it more confusing, Muppets redirects to The Muppets and not Muppet.

edited 12th Oct '11 10:24:31 AM by Ghilz

Muppets are not any puppet. It's a very specific type.

Yes, the kind that specifically appears on The Muppets show/movies. It's a trademark anything else literally can't be called a muppet

To quote the other wiki:

Either you rename the trope, or we have to remove all the non disney non jim henson examples to fit the actual definition.

edited 12th Oct '11 10:37:48 AM by Ghilz

Well what kind of name could be used if not Muppet? I see your point but I don't think there's really any other word for them. They aren't just puppets, and all of the entries on the list are derived from the Jim Henson ones anyway. I agree that the redirect oughta be corrected though.

Yes, Muppet is a trademark, but in conversational English it's used to refer to the specific style of puppet used in the Muppets. Works like Avenue Q that use the same style are called muppets by the general public. Just because something is a trademark doesn't mean that the majority of people care. Nor will they stop using the word in whatever generic form they feel like.

The trope's correct as-is; there's no need to pretend a word isn't used the way it is just because of trademark law.

Actually, in fairness to the OP, I think Muppets are pretty much always used to refer to the creation of Jim Henson and his workshop.

In the first ten pages for a Google search simply on "muppet," I have found the following references to something other than Jim Henson's Muppets:

• Urban Dictionary - slang for "a stupid person."
• A blogger that just goes by "muppet" (all lower-case).
• A Pascal-based physics program called M.U.P.P.E.T.
• Wiktionary confirming the Urban Dictionary definition.
• Wired referring to Warren Ellis as a muppet (don't think they mean either the "stupid" definition or the one touted here).
• Someone's pet Boston Terrier.
• A website for "Muppet Labs," which, among other things, promotes the use of INTERCAL, programming's Real Life answer to the Joke Item.

Everything else has been either a dead link or something related to Jim Henson (including a fanart reimagining various muppets as characters from Doctor Who... aw, crap, just inspired yet another stupid WMG, didn't I?).

At any rate, if the generic "floppy felt puppet" didn't appear at all in the first ten pages of a Google search, when someone's pet dog did, I have to suspect that there's merit to saying that "muppet" is not actually a generic term for that type of puppet.

Google probably isn't the best source for this. Google search is based on most relevant. When most people are Googling for muppets they're looking for Kermit and Miss Piggy, so that's what Google is going to pop up. Those muppets are hugely popular. Of course they're going to drown out everything else on the Google search. I'd be shocked if they didn't.

The telling thing is that when works like Avenue Q are discussed, the characters are called muppets even when they have no ties to Henson.

edited 12th Oct '11 1:11:26 PM by shimaspawn

Well, what source would one look for, then, to find out whether people use "muppet" to describe such puppets not made by Jim Henson's Workshop?

I just tried Googling "Avenue Q Muppets" to see any instances where those puppets were referred to as muppets (as opposed to simply being compared to The Muppets), and I've found two interviews with puppeteers from the show (and one of those, Stephanie D'Abruzzo, only used the word in reference to her 19 years working on Sesame Street), two reviews of the show on Yelp, a couple blogs describing them as "muppet-like" (which wouldn't count to me), one would-be script writer who cited it as inspiration for a "muppet film noir script" (really), and a public access show's website in San Fran. That's again the first ten pages of a Google search... that's five examples of specifically calling them "muppets" (instead of a direct comparison to The Muppets) in a hundred links.

I see the point that Google would naturally be predisposed towards favoring The Muppets on a search for the term. But unless I can see a good amount of "in-the-wild" evidence of use as a generic term for this type of puppet, I'm inclined to agree with the OP. While I think OP should have brought a bit more evidence to the table, I think it backs up their assertion so far.

Muppets are like popsicles. They're both trademarked, but are you really going to call that box you bought from the dollar store "frozen confectioneries"? No. Just like how I'm not going to call the things from Avenue Q "marionettes with puppet features".

I'd like to point out, though, that one the first page of Google results alone, you only have four references to Popsicle-brand ice pops, while you have four (including one also referencing the brand) references to popsicle as a generic word for an ice pop, one to a band, one to a charity who use a generic popsicle as their logo, and one to a dog (because a single-word search inevitably turns up a pet named that word).

So in the span of one page of Google results, I've found almost as many results as to "popsicle" becoming generic as I did after ten pages of a similar search for "muppet."

Quite frankly, I think that shows, by comparison, that people generally aren't referring to felt puppets of that style as muppets.

I think we've got a supertrope for that, Kleenex Brand Tissue or something?

Brandname Takeover

Right.

Ultimately, whether or not to rename this trope comes down to whether or not a Brand Name Takeover has happened to The Muppets. I honestly think that it has not; you will find a few scattered references like that, but you'll be just as likely to find people calling random video game critters Pokemon regardless of what game they came from (including the oft-joked about pronunciation Pokey-man... which I didn't believe people actually did until my mom said it earnestly).

If it can be shown, however, that I am wrong and that "muppets" has gone generic, I'll withdraw my objections to the name used on the wiki.

Try Googling "Muppet Style." That brings up tons of results for, well, muppet style puppets that aren't The Muppets. I think it's gone semi-generic. Not quite kleenex, since you need that extra qualifier. "Muppet type" works too. Even "muppet puppet" brings up some of the same results.

edited 12th Oct '11 5:31:26 PM by leurz

Except that "muppet-style" and "muppet-type" are making explicit comparisons to The Muppets. So by using those phrases, you are invoking the originals to make a comparison with the type.

You don't say "kleenex-style," "band-aid-style," or "popsicle-style." The fact that you have to modify it is proof that a Brand Name Takeover hasn't happened.

Unless there's another name for a Muppets-style puppet, I can't see renaming the page.

I'm pretty sure I'm not arguing against you. Maybe a rename would be appropriate if the rest of the world is using the term with qualifiers. Do I sense a new entry to the Sublime Rhyme index?

edited 12th Oct '11 7:02:48 PM by leurz

Plus that doesn't change the fact that we have two article with pretty much the same title, and that Muppet often used to pothole or wick to an actual member of The Muppets.

For example

• (...) with the muppet Animal, but he's actually a pretty quiet and easygoing guy. (All Drummers Are Animals)
• A collection of Muppet parodies of famous artworks, under the title The Kermitage Collection, included Kermit and Miss Piggy in American Gothique. (American Gothic Couple)
• Often done by the Muppet characters on Sesame Street, The Muppet Show, etc. In one scene in The Muppet Movie, after getting thrown about in a bar brawl, Kermit mutters to the audience "I hope you appreciate that I'm doing my own stunts," and the piano player gives the camera a "who are you talking to?" sort of look. (Aside Glance)
• Milder variation: In The Muppet Christmas Carol, the ghostly Marley brothers (Jacob and Robert, played by Statler And Waldorf) reminisce about the year they shut down the orphanage on Christmas, leaving the kids in the snow with their frostbitten teddy bears. (Burn the Orphanage)

And I am only down to the letter C

Other misuses:

• Crosses the Line Twice
• Conspicuously Light Patch
• Creepy Puppet Project
• Crying Wolf
• DVD Commentary
• Ed Sullivan Show (Muppet: Jim Henson made several appearances in the show's later years.)
• Extreme Omnivore

Note that I am only calling misuse those that potholing Muppet as a work or for a specific member of The Muppet, not those that use muppet as a type of puppet even if its refering to a creation of Jim Henson.

edited 12th Oct '11 9:31:00 PM by Ghilz

More Misuse. Remember, only 100 wicks, so each misuse is literally 1% misuse:

• Fall From Heaven
• Fraggle Rock (Shout-Out: To other Muppet productions.)
• He Also Did (Frank Oz is known as the voice of several Muppets, including fozzy, Miss Piggy, Grover, Yoda, (He was also the Hands of the Sweedish Scheff while Jim Henson did the head and voice). However, he also directed Little Shop of Horrors (which after all uses puppetry to portray a major character) and The Stepford Wives.)
• Late Night Liars (four non-Muppet Muppets (well, it's the same Jim Henson company))
• Lucky Charms Title {Jim Henson's Muppet★Vision 3D}
• Mind Your Step ( In the Muppet special A Muppet Family Christmas,)
• One-Scene Wonder (Jim Henson showing up in anything done with the Muppets is always special.)
• Parental Bonus: (Speaking of Sesame Street, try to think of a Muppet production that doesn't include these. We'll wait.}
• Promoted Fanboy: (Neil Patrick Harris, who guest starred an episode, is also a big Muppet fan.)
• Rape Is Ok When It Is Female On Male: (Lightly used in the Muppet show,)
• Santana: (What Do You Mean, It's Not for Kids?: It's basically Caribbean Muppets who drink, curse and have sex.)
• Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness: { Muppet Classic Theater featured a particularly multiloquent gendarme in the included interpretation of "The Supreme Potentate's Neoteric Habiliments". }
• The Cameo: (All of the Muppet movies were chock full of cameos.)
• Thanksgiving Day: (Most likely various Muppet based balloons (Kermit, Grover, Big Bird) would be next)
• What Could Have Been: (a Muppet version of The Great Movie Ride (cancelled due to Jim Henson's death))

And that's all 100 wicks checked. 26 percent refer to the work rather than the trope. So can't say the name is working.

Some are outright sinkholes I have not included.

edited 12th Oct '11 9:30:18 PM by Ghilz

Animatronic Puppet?

Why not just Muppet Style?

^^ They aren't all animatronic. they may be, but animatronic is by definition automated. Many muppet-style puppets are completely operated by hand.. Muppet Style Puppet works.

edited 12th Oct '11 10:18:12 PM by Madrugada

Then how about "Puppet" or "animatronic creatures"? That's what the Jim Henson Company calls them. Less someone's gonna tell me they don't know the name of the stuff they pioneered?

Speaking of which, what IS the definition of the page? So far the description includes Three Paragraph on the history of the Jim Henson company and The Muppets and the following definitions:

• A character in a live-action series rendered by puppetry or animatronics.
• A full body suit and an animatronic head.
• Hand Puppet as a subtype.

edited 12th Oct '11 10:32:06 PM by Ghilz