Headscratchers / The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel

Season 1

Midge's teardown of Sophie

• Had her teardown of Sophie been justified or not?
  • It is certainly justified given Midge's troubles that put her into this new career. She was walking on a well beaten path, a rose tinted path of being the obedient girl, a good wife and an adequate mother. But then the unthinkable happened. Her husband left her. Even after doing exactly what she was told to do, and following all the instructions to a T, and Joel still left for his “dumb secretary” Penny Pan. Her world came crashing down and the established “institutions” are of no help. Her father-in-law declares that he intends to take her residence back and her lousy husband didn't even save anything. This frustration is very apparent in her two initial outbursts when she jumped on stage and blurted her heart out.
    Slowly, slowly she gathers her life back. She gets a job at B. Altman, and moonlights as a comedienne. While Midge is getting back on her feet, she realizes what an uphill task it is. She discovers that, while women obviously face sexism and patriarchy from men, more often than not, women act like crabs and pull others down. Even in Midge's own life: it was her mother who taught Midge to be “womanly”; wearing rib crushing bras, never be without makeup in front of husband even before sleeping, be ready with brisket at the drop of a hat, etc.
    Soon Midge discovers that Sophie Lennon, too, is a “perpetrator” of such “rules” who won't let Midge be herself and will force her into a box of stereotype. And while her idol was blown off from the pedestal, her mother broke down over Midge not reuniting with Joel as a good wife is supposed to. This sequence of events lead to her eventual outburst at the Gaslight, where she first takes on her mother and then segues to the “myth of Sophie Lennon”. As she later outlines in her scenes with Susie at the end of season 2, Sophie Lennon obviously had her own issues with sexism that are the whole reason she's got this whole "Apron Matron" schtick. But from Midge's side of things at that point in time, Sophie is the gold standard that people will refer to for upcoming commediennes like Midge. So, for Midge, it becomes no different than what she already faced in the household lifestyle. Sophie is just another person saying she has to change. That she has to moderate her dreams to fit the 1958 mold of an ideal woman. Midge wanted approval from an idol, some sort of inspiring message to keep fighting, but found criticism instead. So Midge realized that she has to fight for herself, and that Sophie was fair game. Furthermore, every joke that comes out of Midge’s mouth is the truth. She doesn’t pretend to be something different, then head back to her butler filled mansion. All of these reasons are probably the cause of her verbal assault on Sophie.
    • That said, Sophie was probably not trying to oppress Midge. She survived through an even worse era of showbiz-sexism than Midge has experienced. It is reasonable to let Sophie off the hook a bit because, as hinted at in season 1 as well as the backstory bits she confides to Susie in season 2, she had no choice BUT to conform lest her career be blown out. In fact, it could be argued that Sophie was genuinely trying to help Midge, which is why it seemed like such a shitty thing for Midge to have done in that sketch. So in the end they just have two different viewpoints. Midge, who entered standup comedy as a result of her perfect life falling apart, believes that she can work hard, and beat anyone who stands in her path to success. Accordingly, Sophie, a classical trained actress from Yale who got groomed into her schtick by Harry Drake, has only seen a man’s world where women can not control their own success. Conformity (Sophie) vs. define (Midge). They both have very different backgrounds which determine which side they fall under.
  • It was a shitty thing to do, yes. But Midge definitely had a lot on her plate. Here she is, and has been, fighting tooth and nail to do well in a ‘man’s world’. She has faced off against police officers, sexist audiences, inept judges, and other comedians. Only for Sophie (or, based on some of her stuff in season 2, her own staff) to be like, "Give up. You have to conform. You aren’t funny." All Midge knows, or cares about is that Sophie is just another person saying she has to change. That she has to moderate her dreams to fit the 1958-1959 mold of an ideal woman. She wanted approval from an idol, some sort of inspiring message to keep fighting, but found criticism instead. So Midge realized that she has to fight for herself, and that Sophie was fair game. Furthermore, what she said in her teardown of Sophie was no different from any of her other teardowns of Joel or Penny: she spoke the brutal truth. She doesn’t pretend to be something different, then head back to her butler filled mansion. (Though, if we're being fair, Midge is probably the opposite of Sophie, in that until late in season 2, she's pretending to be something she's not when she's not performing on stage. This was actually more or less the impetus for why she dated Benjamin in season 2; she was still trying to maintain some resemblance of her pre-standup life, only for her roadtrip set, and a pep talk from Lenny Bruce, to make her realize she has to commit fully to the career instead of juggling her two lives)

  • At its heart, the show is about a woman trying to break into a profession and space that has always been dominated by males, while simultaneously retaining her own identity and femininity. Midge realizes that she is very much an Upper West Side woman but she also realizes that she is more than that. So the show is in a way following her as she comes to terms with reconciling the different parts of her identity. What Midge did here is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it's really shitty to be pulling down another person to prop yourself up. Midge does precisely that. She uses Sophie Lennon as fodder for her act, tarnishes Sophie's reputation, and makes herself a target. Whatever Sophie does or thinks is her own private matter, and it was in confidence and as an experienced comedienne that Sophie shared her lifestyle and views with Midge. Midge more or less violated that confidence. However, at the same time, Sophie, by virtue of being one of the few truly successful comediennes in the business, was pretty much in a position of power. With great power comes great responsibility. As she illustrates in season 2, with her ample fortune, her ample influence and comedy talent, she could easily have built her reputation as a comedienne without having to resort to a stage persona so unlike her own, especially if she didn't want to. People loved her for being common, humble, and relatably funny, when in reality she despises both her persona and the people who loved her purely because she thought both beneath her. Midge expected Sophie to be an empowering, confident figure, not an entitled, manipulative snob. Probably it was this anger at being told to dismiss her true self, which she had struggled to finally embrace, that caused Midge to snap and start taking potshots at Sophie Lennon.

Season 2

Midge keeping her secret

• In "Midway to Midtown", Midge is so concerned for her parents or anyone else to find out about her stand-up comedy gigs or even the profession, to the point that she chides Susie for talking about her to the Village Voice. Was it frowned upon to be a comic within a family?
  • There are two layers to Midge's concerns. The first is that she's a woman, so in the late 1950s, working outside the home in a male profession was frowned upon (look at how her parents freaked out over Midge getting a job at B. Altman in season 1, and how Abe reacted to finding out about Midge's standup career in season 2^note Although to be fair to Abe, her course-correction upon seeing him in the audience was kinda offensive to him, especially since Midge happened to get a "blue" slot, meaning her act was going to be dirtier than normal). But as an additional layer, standup comedy was considered a low-brow profession. Joan Rivers (one of the biggest inspirations for Midge) talked about this in her interviews about her life: her upper middle class family looked down on performers. Her father was a prominent doctor, and Joan said that prostitutes that came to see him would always describe themselves as "actresses" which just compounded his negative view. Her parents weren't the only ones who felt this way. Being a performer is great for entertainment, but in the late 1950s, it just wasn't considered something decent upstanding folks went into, particularly comedy. (This isn't just the case with Midge; even Sophie Lennon is shown dealing with this when she alludes to Susie about how no one would take "Sophie from Ann Arbor" seriously)

Midge not inviting her brother to the Concord?

• So Midge gets Noah and Astrid to give her a ride to the Concord. Noah comments that Midge is dressed rather fancily, which he and Astrid take as Midge saying she's got a date she's meeting up with there. But what surprises me is, why didn't Midge just tell Noah and Astrid the real reason why she was going to the Concord? I know from a writing perspective, the whole thing was set up for Abe to be the only one to find out, but...having Noah and Astrid driving her, I think Midge could've easily tempted them into watching her perform by saying something like "no, it's not a date. Why don't you come with me and see?" Season 1 even established that Noah knows that Midge is funny and capable, so I'm pretty sure he would've been totally on board, and considering the secrecy that surrounds his job at the CIA, he would totally understand Midge's desire to keep her new career a secret from the rest of her family.
  • She probably didn't want to burden them with keeping the secret from their parents or risk them letting slip (especially Astrid, who ties herself into knots trying to make Rose like her), or she doesn't feel comfortable doing her 'blue' routine even in front of them. Also, Midge doesn't know about Noah's CIA career.
• In fact, this raises a related question, which is, how come more Steinerites didn't become aware of Midge's new career by the end of the summer? I can't imagine Abe was the only person from Steiner to have gone to Midge's Concord gig, and think it'd be a little more realistic if, as the summer wound down, other Steinerites were beginning to see Midge's gigs and gossiping about them. Possibly culminating in something like Midge ending up as the standup comedian who followed the employee talent show.
  • It's kinda hard to believe nobody else from Steiner saw that. Now, if others were there, they would be shocked to hear her lewd routine but on the other hand, most of them probably would have a better sense of humor than Midge's immediate family. But in general, this just goes along with a larger un-realism about the show, which is that nobody seems to put the pieces together about Midge.

"I want you to lie low"

• So, when Abe finds out about Midge's stand-up during their Catskills vacation, he wants her to “lay low” and not tell Rose about her comedy. I know he feels overwhelmed and wants some control of the situation but, did he just forget that the whole reason Rose ran away to Paris a few months ago was because she didn't want to be treated like a doll?
  • Let's put it this way: Abe hasn't really learned his lesson about how to treat Rose (and by extension, all the women in his life that he loves, including Midge). This is the same Columbia professor who once stated that the great thinkers, especially the women, were all hard on the eyes, pretty much directly putting down his smart, beautiful, curious daughter's interest in the newspaper and indirectly putting down the intellect of his gorgeous, ageless, looks and image obsessed, educated wife (who has lived in Paris independently!) who never let him see her without makeup and perfect hair.

Denominations

• What is the probable Jewish denomination of the Maisels and Weissmans?
  • They attend a synagogue with mixed seating, and while there were Orthodox synagogues with “family seating” in 1959, this likely was meant to be a Reform congregation. The Weissmans themselves clearly don’t keep kosher, and while they might keep a kosher home, the fact that they have a non-Jewish maid with unfettered access to the kitchen (and authority within that space) would probably suggest that they don’t. If we assume the same about Midge, the fact that she is happy and eager to have the rabbi over to her house (and presumably, since he is happy to attend) would again support the idea that he is not Orthodox. Having said all of that, their rabbi (in the first episode of the first season) was somewhat incongruously wearing a tallis at Midge's wedding reception, so it's also possible that this is one of the few areas that could have been researched a little more carefully.
    • They actually did have a couple Jewish historians on staff and I've heard from Rabbis that this is all very accurate. Non-Jewish maids are a staple of kosher kitchens because they can do things like boil water or turn on and off lights on the Shabbat (although that's controversial). I'm not entirely sure about the prominence of conservative or reconstructionist judaism during this era, but their congregation looks a lot like the conservative synagogues I grew up with.

Midge the neglectful parent

• Why are the kids even in the story when Midge seems to forget about them sometimes?
  • The children are a necessary component of the series because, as Midge says in her long-distance call to Joel from Paris in the first episode of season 2, it's the children that keep them from going their separate ways. The families still have to interact, which leads to so many delicious scenes. The interaction of the two families, their dichotomy, is a catalyst for Midge's interrupted perfect life, and inspiration for her stand up content.
    As for Midge being neglectful, well, in season two when they are in the Catskills, yes it's bothersome that Midge left the baby in the car. But they lead a life where someone delivers their lamb, cooks and cleans for them, and helps with the children. Midge, Joel, Rose, Abe, they were never portrayed as doting parents or grandparents as this was a time when parents were more hands-off. The children are merely one more check on the list of the "perfect" life that Midge had that was shattered, thus creating the heartbreak and oppression that fuels her standup content.
  • This is a common criticism to see in period pieces that are produced in the 2010s but set in the 1960s, 1970s or even the 1980s. In these sorts of period pieces, like Dead Poets Society, Mad Men, Now and Then, Stand by Me, and Stranger Things (to a lesser extent), they all take place in a time where having children was a requirement (for women, at least) to being a functioning and upstanding member of society, and children often didn't have their needs accommodated by their parents. It's only been in recent decades (think starting at The '80s) where helicopter parenting and concerns over children being with strangers became topics of debate and concern; think of episodes of Rugrats, Daria, King of the Hill and other shows from The '90s and on where parenting philosophies are topics for episodes and dialogue. A mother like Didi Pickles would never have been thought of as My Beloved Smother in the 1950s, but rather as over-coddling her boys.
  • There’s also the fact that the kids are so young that it’s hard to work with them. The rules for child actors are really strict so it’s hard to keep them around on set from a legal perspective. From the logistical issues, kids are notoriously hard to work with.

Simone the dog

• How could Abe and Rose just leave Simone in Paris? This was decades before the airlines were cracking down hard on fake service animals, and before smoking was banned.
  • What probably miffs people is that Rose lavished so much attention on Simone, from the cooing, baby talk and feeding food off her plate. She acted like the dog was loved and cherished. To be able to leave it without a second thought meant all that affection was just a show, probably to annoy Abe, to show how it meant little that he and Midge had come to Paris to chase her down. It meant that for her, the dog was just a nice thing to have and a prop for her "Boheme Parisian artist" role. It's also worth noting that flights were longer and more arduous for animals back then.
  • Supposedly, Rose has a few relatives who are allergic to dogs. She did leave Simone in the care of the landlady who will dote on her. Also Deliberate Values Dissonance, as many people back then weren't very aware of the danger of receiving pets as a novelty gift (this same issue appears every time there is a film about a specific animal, leading to a demand in that animal as a pet, only for people to abandon it after realizing that it requires care they're not capable of providing).
  • Simone was safer being left behind with the landlady than being taken on the plane where she'd likely be kept in the cargo area and freeze.

Season 3

Susie's salary

• I understand that the "standard" rate of a manager varies from 10% - 15% and hitting 20 in a S-tier cases, but shouldn't Susie have been getting more off Midge? She's a startup with barely any money made in the first place and it's a little selfish of Midge to adhere to that "90-10" rule when its clear that Susie needs the money to not only survive but invest in her clients in the form of handouts, pictures and phone calls. It should have ideally been 50-50 (in the beginning phases), or if that is too harsh 65-35, which could be adjusted as their careers boosted.
  • The 90/10 rule is assuming that the manager will be handling other clients to make up for it. As the star rises, the manager will have fewer clients but probably make more money. Susie has been shooting herself in the foot by not trying to establish more talent for herself to manage. She probably wanted to keep everything professional as there may come a point where a better and more established manager may try to poach Midge.
  • It also was not Midge's idea to split it 90-10. Remember, Susie doesn't know that much about managing or business, and so just went with the industry standard. I'm pretty sure if Susie told Midge it should have been 50-50, she would have said, "that's fine with me".

Rose turning down her trust fund

• Instead of giving up her trust fund, couldn't Rose have let her family vote her an increase in how much she was getting every month, and then used that increase to hire a lawyer to sue those guys into letting her on the board?
  • They made a point of explaining why she did it more than once. The whole Maisel-Weissman household is individually having their own little revolutions when it comes to their norms. Midge doing comedy, Abe quitting his job to get more in touch with his values, and Rose ditching the trust fund because she is tired of the course of her life being controlled by men. Yes, Rose could've just sat down so she could get her money, but most of the show's audience grew up being able to make their own choices (both men and women alike) with no one telling them "shut up because the men are deciding what is to be done with you." It's easy to say, “Shut up and get your money, Rose,” when for most in the 21st century, it'd be a one time thing to submit to someone for the sake of a trust fund, whereas for Rose, this has been her whole life.

Midge breaking up with Benjamin

• Okay, I get why they revealed Midge broke up with Benjamin via letter instead of talking to him in person: it was so they could foreshadow her burning her bridges with Shy by showing her unintentionally being insensitive to someone else. But alas, uh, did Midge cheat on Benjamin by writing the letter and then sleeping with Joel or not? Because if she'd already sent the letter, she was already broken up with Benjamin by the time she slept with Joel.
  • It seems a little bit of a stretch to say that they would have been broken up the minute she sent the letter, and therefore she might not have been cheating. Benjamin would have needed to read and process the letter in order to not be completely blindsided by her actions, which he clearly was.
  • Whether it was cheating or not is debatable, kinda like the "We were on a break!" debacle from Friends. Now, what it highlights is how Midge can be incredibly fickle. Her spontaneity is generally put to well use for her comedy but no doubt hurts and baffles those around her.
  • What Midge did was...not a classy move, I think most of us can agree on that. What probably makes it a bit more asshole-ish is that the decision to tour with Shy was rather impulsive on Midge’s part. That was supposed to signal that Midge’s top priority is her standup comedy. But the fact that she straight-up forgot about Benjamin and then wrote him a note is just… yeah, not great.
    From a Doylist standpoint, showrunner Amy Sherman-Palladino probably suspected that the audience finished season 2 assuming that Midge had visited Benjamin in-person to break up with him between seeing Lenny Bruce on the Steve Allen show and her one-night stand with Joel. So in that regard, revealing that she just left him a note in 3x08 was very purposeful to show just how self-centered she can be. Like, "she couldn’t find a moment to visit Benjamin between shopping for her new wardrobe for the tour, seeing Lenny on the Steve Allen show, and sleeping with Joel in 2x10?" It deliberately doesn’t make her look great.
    Now, on the flip side, Benjamin's whole point about “you just assumed I wouldn’t be okay with you on the road!” partially negates the reasons that Midge left him in the first place. She left him because she decided to finally make a choice in her life, which she’d been putting off all season. We at least needed to trust that her choice to reject “Jello molds” is true and honest and that she would not have made a good wife and comic. Him saying that she actually could have had both undermines that to a degree, which: a) yes, is closer to how reality works, b) sets up a possible extension of Benjamin’s existence, BUT c) is narratively weak. As in, either ASP planned on this point being made since last season, or she made it up specifically for this episode.
  • Midge wasn't selfish in breaking up with Benjamin. Selfish would be for Midge to marry Benjamin knowing that she would have to neglect him. She would be traveling, doing standup and talking about their lives, always putting her career first before their relationship. He might have said he would be okay with that, but this was the 1950s/1960s. A time when the concept of a woman having a career and a husband waiting patiently at home just did not exist. It would make sense for Midge during that time period, in the way she was brought up, to believe she would have to choose between being a housewife or a fulltime comic, especially with what Declan Howell had said to her about how to become great, you give up everything and everyone else; not out of animosity, but because you have nothing left to give after you give your all to your craft.
    Midge also realized she didn’t actually want to marry Benjamin. So her choosing to marry him anyway would have been the selfish act. The mature choice was to break it off. Now the way she went about the breakup was screwed up and cowardly, and that is what should be critiqued. It's not what she did, it's how she did it. Because aside from that, ending the engagement because she realized she wanted other things is definitely not wrong on Midge's part. People are allowed to end relationships for no other reason than they just don’t want to be with that person anymore. Just because someone is nice to you, doesn’t mean you owe it to them to stick it out.
  • It's important to note that this show is set in the late 1950s/early 1960s, when the concept of an independent woman like Midge was very foreign. It was more normal for the husband to be out working while the wife stayed at home. Even if Benjamin said he accepted her career, the reality is that he would've eventually developed issues with her being absent most of the time. It's hard to believe that Benjamin could live up to his word. Yes, he was accepting, intelligent, attractive, enjoyed her comedy, and knew who he was (Joel's main problem). But he is way too much of a blank slate. He can't keep up with Midge. Midge wouldn't be able to stay with him long term without quickly getting bored, and it's hard to imagine he'd enjoy her whole "independent woman" shtick for more than a few months...tops.
    Also, the season 2 episodes leading up to Benjamin's proposal are meant to show that he's not right for Midge. He's too traditional and not adventurous enough. He is great in a number of ways, but Midge isn't willing to prioritize him, even part time. She literally accepted going on an international 6 month tour without thinking about the man she was set to marry (pending parental approval).
    • Ironically, Benjamin would have been an excellent match for Midge had she never dived into comedy. Fun, spontaneous, adventurous, but ultimately willing to live a very conventional upper-west-side life.
  • There's four things going on from Midge's side:
    1. She assumes a lot and avoids confrontations. She's bit of Rachel Greene that way.
    2. Her mother and 1950s society believe that no matter what, a good wife should be there for the husband. Midge seems more free-spirited than Benjamin, so he might believe in those older ways of thinking and wouldn't accept Midge after a while.
    3. Her past. Look at all the flashbacks of Joel and Midge. They looked like a fun couple. How independent was Midge and how supportive was Joel?
    4. In all honesty, Midge and Benjamin rushed into marriage. They met in July at the Catskills, and he wants to propose to her in late November. Midge's career at that point was also still set in New York. They weren't past the point where she tours constantly and he works and helps at home. And again, as much as Benjamin might say he's okay with that, there's an equal chance of him getting annoyed by the lifestyle and jumping the Midge fanclub.
• More importantly, why did Benjamin have to look like an idiot in the diner? He never struck me as the kind of person who out of the blue would just show up the diner and confront Midge. Yes, Midge was selfish and someone had to call her out on this. But Benjamin's more methodical and waited a long time. So why confront her in public with Midge and make a scene? He's lucky none of the Stage Deli employees interrupted him and threw him out onto the street.
  • It seems he had made his peace with the situation and was bottling up his heartbreak, but Rose repeatedly coming to him at his work and trying to set him up with other women was the tipping point, especially since he (mistakenly) thought Midge was the one who sent her out of some twisted sense of guilt and reparation.

Why exactly did Midge leave Lenny at the end of the night?

• She never discusses it with anyone, so her reasoning isn't clear, but it seems obvious that the answer is not that she just isn't into him or wanted to keep their relationship platonic. It also seems logical that there has to have been some compelling and specific reason for her to turn him down, given that she did not have access to her own room that night and the following episode makes a point of the fact that she slept outside on a lawn chair and that it was uncomfortable. Was she thrown off by the fact that he's living alone at a hotel? Did she feel like she would be taking advantage of someone going through a rough patch? Did she just not want to move too quickly, or was she worrying that it would turn into an ultimately meaningless one-night stand like she just had with Joel? For that matter, is she putting it off out of a sense of obligation to Joel or Benjamin? Does she not want to get into something new while she's on tour? Is she just sick of romance in general? What?
  • The chemistry between the two is insane and entering a sexual, possibly romantic relationship would have made things messy given their respective schedules and past relationships. They probably both know they're better off as friends.
    • I really feel like if that were the explanation, they wouldn't have gone out on the date in the first place and they definitely wouldn't have almost slept together. Besides, Lenny basically asked Midge if he had any shot with her as she was leaving, and she said yes.
  • There's no one specific thing that made her decide not to. She just wasn't motivated quite enough in the moment to decide to go through with it. She's teetering on the edge right up until the moment when she decides to pass. Remember that it's 1960, when there were stronger practical and social restrictions on a woman's sexuality. Midge complains about them a lot in her act, so they're clearly something she contends with. She's got to be very motivated to jump into the sack with a new guy, and she ultimately decided that she just wasn't quite motivated enough in the moment. Her complicated relationship history, Lenny's complicated life situation, and her complicated relationship with Lenny all probably provided some degree of challenge to her motivation.
    • This is a fair point, but the show also takes a degree of artistic license with the historical pressures put on women's sexuality. Midge expresses to Carole some nervousness about the idea of a one-night stand with a stranger, but she started having sex with Benjamin before they were engaged, and she's generally a more sexually liberated person than we would expect to see of women in the time period. In any case, if her thinking did go in that direction, it's reasonable to expect the framing of the episode to tell us as much. The only thing that's stood in the way of Midge agreeing to a sexual encounter thus far was not feeling ready to sleep with somebody who wasn't familiar, i.e. Joel, but she's ostensibly gotten over that at this point.
  • Everyone thinks Midge got famous by sleeping with Lenny Bruce, and she can honestly argue that that never happened and their relationship is platonic and professional. If she sleeps with him at any point, that stops being true and her credibility is shot.
  • At this point Midge is also once again legally married to Joel due to the Vegas wedding. Midge doesn't always make smart decisions but in this case she decided not to have sex with someone else while she was married.
  • There's also one big meta reason for this: it's that Rachel Brosnahan is ostensibly against Midge being in a sexual fling with Lenny Bruce.

Apollo fallout

Is it just me, or was everyone kinda grasping the Idiot Ball when it came to the Apollo performance and its fallout?

• Reggie: His one thing is ostensibly protecting Shy, making his directive to Midge wildly implausible. When firing Midge and Susie, he says he can't explain the context to Shy; it would hurt too much. Uh, what? Wouldn't it make sense to soften the blow by telling Shy, "I told Midge backstage to focus on you, which she did. I just didn't know that you'd told her you were a closeted gay. You need to tell me these things in the future." rather than leave him thinking Midge was plotting this for weeks? Because Midge is not that kind of person. Like, on the one hand Reggie seems selfish, then in the next breath he's telling Susie it's one of those hateful things managers must do against their will. So does he really think Midge outed Shy or not?
  • Reggie certainly should've given Midge better advice. That's actually probably why Shy's handlers canned him, seeing as they insinuated in season 4 episode 5 that they were looking for an excuse to get rid of him and Midge's slip-up gave them one.
• Midge: I was impressed she kept this secret even from Susie. For months. She seemed to truly grasp the gravity. Since she did, why would she suddenly flippantly make these jokes in front of hundreds of people, even if "two doors down"? It doesn't fit. This is even worse than what she did at Mary's Shotgun Wedding last year, because while more vague and less crude, the scale is much larger and potentially more damaging.
  • Midge explains her behavior in season 4 when she talks to Shy. She was intimidated by Moms Mabley, and was desperate for the laugh, and since Reggie told her "hometown crowd, talk about Shy," she did that, without giving much thought to what she was saying. Had she given more thought to her words, she'd have made riffs that would've stayed clear of any potentially dangerous subjects.
• Susie: Why would Susie leave Midge alone to do this single set, before a packed auditorium at an iconic location? She couldn't have waited a few hours to go out with her sister to burn down their mother's house for the insurance?
  • Shy engages in good-natured ribbing with his band on a few occasions, so Reggie telling Midge to make fun of him is within the established range of acceptable behavior for people in Shy's good graces. Reggie having no idea about Midge's secret knowledge also makes sense because clearly Shy doesn't discuss this openly, even with Reggie. This is 1960, and Shy is black, which basically makes him doubly closeted. He's not going to bring it up of his own volition just to give Reggie updates. "Hey, Reggie, you know how I'm gay? Well, Midge found out I'm gay after that male lover beat me up." Shy isn't saying any of that. And Reggie refusing to take the blame also perfectly fits with Reggie's character. He's established that he doesn't let anything get between him and Shy, and everyone else's problems are not his problems. He's certainly not going to drive a wedge between himself and Shy for the sake of Midge's career, no matter how guilty he feels. As for Midge, she's already established that she doesn't see the implications or ramifications of her jokes when she's riffing. Personally, I think it's plausible that Midge didn't realize that her jokes painting Shy as a diva could also be construed as pointing to his sexuality. When Reggie says, "Judy Garland shoes?" she gives an "oh, shit, yeah..." look, like it's just occurring to her how coded that bit was. As for Susie, she's not relevant. She had no reason to suspect that the gig would prove that crucial, and since she didn't know about Shy, her presence wouldn't have made any difference.
  • If Susie were there, yes she'd have given Midge better words of encouragement that would've probably steered Midge away from potentially dangerous waters, as she admits in the first episode of season 4 when Midge is having her meltdown in the cab. But it would've been irrelevant. Because the whole scene at Shy's wedding in season 4 where Lou and his cronies try to bribe Midge makes clear that the Judy Garland joke wasn't the only reason she was fired. She was fired because she knows Shy is gay, and his handlers don't want him to be surrounded by anyone who knows of his homosexuality (something supported by the fact that Reggie was fired as well) and thus could say things about Shy that could make him unprofitable.

Doesn't Reggie deserve a little blame for the Apollo set?

• Okay, I don't dispute Midge has some responsibility for the fallout, saying things about Shy that she shouldn't have, that could easily prove dangerous to Shy given the time period. But doesn't Reggie also bear responsibility? Because Reggie was right that Midge is very good at riffing. But they've been touring for months, so he should also have known that Midge is not good with limits and has a hard time holding back. He tries to present himself as this top-notch protective manager, but if he were half as good as he liked to assert, wouldn't he have done a few things differently? Namely:
  1. If Shy's secret is so important to hide, shouldn't he be even slightly paranoid about the possibility that it would come out? He shouldn't have just said "go talk about personal things about Shy" without at least first setting some boundaries of what's okay to talk about, regardless of whether or not he thought Midge knew or not, especially considering Midge isn't known for holding back. I mean, if Midge went onstage and started talking about how Shy has tantrums where he throws food at his band members, or other ways where he acts unreliable or acts like a diva, Reggie wouldn't have been thrilled with her either, since that also tarnishes Shy's image.
  2. He would've known about the Sophie Lennon debacle.
  3. At the same time while Midge indeed can be pretty ignorant, I had a hard time believing she would not have considered how these jokes would play out. Yeah she can be pretty oblivious at times (like with Susie's financial issues or her toast at Mary's wedding), but she's not stupid. So to a degree, that whole exchange outside the plane was partially Reggie rolling over on Midge and refusing to take the hit for his incompetence.
  • There's a theory out there that when Reggie encouraged Midge to talk about Shy, he was purposefully sabotaging her. This theory goes like this: Reggie had been friends with Shy since they were kids. Now Shy was getting very acquainted with Midge; hell, Shy hired her on without consulting Reggie. So Reggie so he may have harbored some jealousy over Midge and Shy becoming close, and felt threatened by the possibility that he was losing some of his control over his cash cow. So he decided he needed Midge out of the mix so that he could have Shy to himself. Reggie knew Midge's style of comedy. He also knew she wasn't the kind of person to hold back. So he made the suggestion to her to talk about Shy. In doing so, he knew she was going to cross a line and that could be used to get her off the tour. Midge was so desperate that she didn’t think through the possible consequences, and she trusted Reggie when she shouldn’t have.
  • Reggie is definitely partially to blame. He admits as much, but won't stick his neck out for the sake of Midge's career no matter how guilty he feels.
  • In season 4, we learn that Shy's handlers fired his entire old band...including Reggie. They probably held him accountable for the Apollo debacle because of the fact that he encouraged Midge to riff about Shy (and as Lou insinuates, he and the others were already looking for a reason to get rid of Reggie, so Midge just accelerated the inevitable).

Leveraging Shy

• Even though Midge messed up, shouldn't Susie have threatened to out Shy in response to the firing? Like, "You can't fire Midge without paying her first"? It might be a scummy thing to do over a mistake, but it would force them to provide some sort of severance or financial compensation, as opposed to suddenly dropping her and reneging on the contract, ensuring Midge at least has some savings money to use given Susie just gambled Midge's money away. Also, uh, Reggie, wouldn't it make more sense to tell them this earlier in the day, like back in the morning, rather than wait until they're at the airport to tell Midge she's fired?
  • Season 4 gives us the answer: Shy's handlers wanted to humiliate her. They'd already sold a story to the papers about replacing Midge with a different comic before Midge and Susie even got in that cab to go to the airport.

What if Susie was there for the Apollo set?

• If Susie had been present for the set, would she have kept Midge reined in and kept her from shooting her mouth off?
  • Midge never really told Susie or anyone Shy's secret. Susie didn’t know until the last 2 minutes of the show. So she would not have known enough to tell Midge, "Do not make jokes insinuating Shy's sexuality". However, she would've given her different advice than Reggie did at least that wouldn't have led to it happening. But given how sensitive of a topic homosexuality was at the time, Reggie should've known better than to suggest Midge do something that could've risked Shy being exposed (whether or not he knew that Midge knew), and Midge should have known better no matter what.
  • Susie being there would have changed the game. After getting nervous about going on after Moms, Midge would have turned to Susie, not Reggie, for reassurance and Susie wouldn't have given that stupid advice Reggie gave. Whether Reggie was being malicious or criminally careless in his advice, the advice he gave was just wrong.
  • This moment was supposed to be about both Midge and Susie growing in the world of standup. Midge needs to learn to play to different audiences, while Susie needs to learn when she can take a night away from Midge.
    • First off, the Apollo is notorious for being home to a very rough crowd, a crowd that's rough even to black performers. They often boo acts off the stage. So with Midge being a white performer, the pressure was on. Susie had to go home to be with her sister for the insurance fraud. Even though the dialogue with her sister was comedic, the burning of her family house was their dysfunctional version of a funeral. The big question is, why did it have to be scheduled for that night?
    • Now then, Susie should have been at the Apollo with Midge. The reason why is because she's a more sophisticated woman than Midge. Midge, for all of her grooming (upper-middle class living in a classic 6 apartment, Bryn Mawr educated, father a tenured ivy league professor, etc), has led a sheltered life. Susie has had a rough childhood. She's obviously been fending for herself since childhood and lives in Greenwich Village, which in 1960 was the center of the art world and progressive thought in America. Susie gets the big picture of the seismic changes occurring in the 1960s.
    • Meaning, Susie should have foreseen the hostility that Midge probably was going to be subjected to at the Apollo. Moms' manager barking at her just off stage, for instance. Or Midge replacing Moms to whitewash Shy's act, just like Shy has a "white manager". This is the racism that black national acts had to deal with. Not to mention homophobia, given Shy is also gay.
    • Long story short, for all her snarky remarks about her family, Susie was grieving the loss of her mother and took her eye off the ball.
    • As for Midge, well, even her father pointed out she was out of touch, not being familiar with Jack Kerouac's bestselling classic On The Road. Midge doesn't realize it, but she's a first wave feminist, whose new life and experiences should be expanding her world view to other folks who are discriminated against. And the politician she wouldn't do the voice work for, Phyllis Schafly, was a real person and is as terrible a human being as Abe told her she was.
    • The reason all this happened was that the writers wanted to set up the two of them being fired by Shy. It was a learning moment for the both of them as they grow their respective careers in 1960s America.
  • It wouldn't have mattered if Susie was there to give Midge better advice. Season 4 implies that Midge's career as the comic who opens for Shy was over the second she found out he was gay, because his seedy money men didn't want to lose their meal ticket and wanted to fire anyone (Midge, Reggie, Carol, etc.) who could break the illusion of Shy being a straight man.

What if Midge had gotten to apologize to Shy face-to-face

• What do you think Midge would've had to say in an apology speech to Shy if Susie had gotten Reggie to cave and allow Midge to talk to him face-to-face? Or had shoved Reggie aside and forced her way onto the plane? I mean, obviously Midge would have to apologize for half outing Shy on stage. But there's also the question of, what would she have been able to do to Shy to put this behind them? Besides somehow walking back her earlier remarks (which is somewhat hard because, well, you can't take back words that come out of your mouth)?
  • There was nothing deliberate about Midge's bit. But I'm also sure that Shy thought it was completely deliberate. If so, she could've apologized sincerely so that Shy knows she's on his side. Thing is, the damage is done, whether he forgives her or not. The only way she could cause future damage is if she had said that stuff out of contempt. But she didn't, so if he forgave her she could craft future routines that focus on how many girlfriends he has, etc. She could repair this. She could be convincing.
  • We get our answer when Midge catches Shy alone at his wedding in season 4: she would've apologized sincerely to him, tell him that she messed up and wasn't trying to hurt him.

Susie asking Joel to manage Midge's money

• Susie saying to Joel, "You love her. ... You won't let anything bad happen to her, ever." is weird. Um, what? Joel lets all kinds of bad things happen to Midge; Joel is the primary bad thing that has happened to Midge and Susie is supposed to be the one person who sees him realistically. What had he done to earn this trust? Imagine Joel in an insecure pique about his club failing, receiving a fat check embodying his ex-wife's illustrious career. He is entirely irrational on this point. And remember that time he boasted to Midge about getting a job that could support her and the kids in comfort? How long did that last? He is not to be trusted with Midge's wellbeing or sustenance.
  "You won't let anything bad happen to her" is supposed to be Susie's gig. It's her character's entire raison d'être. I can extend sympathy for gambling addictions, but don't know what to make of one that just arises spontaneously and immediately destroys everything we know of Susie. An addiction that strikes while she is in Vegas because of Midge's career, this thing she cares about above all else, and then is instantly weaponized against Midge's career.
  Susie's relationship with Midge is the backbone of this show and there's no way to repair a violation of this scale. No way to feel like we know who Susie is again, or to trust her motivations. Especially now that she's transferred the bond symbolically over to Joel, The Man of the House, who once stood for everything Susie despises and wants to protect Midge from.

Susie's meeting with Harry

• What was the point of Susie's meeting with all the lawyers and Sophie's old manager? If Sophie was still in contract for all but local commercials, why did Susie push so hard for the Broadway show? Was she not paid at all for that work?
  • Broadway theatre and local commercials were outside of what was covered in Sophie's contract with Harry. The reason Harry didn't include that as "his" in his contract with Sophie was because he had no interest in ever putting her in a serious role. Now Susie notices that local commercials aren't listed in the contract, and it's when Harry mentions Strindberg while leaving the meeting that Susie realizes Broadway shows, where Sophie is not "Sophie from Queens", aren't listed either in Harry's contract. So she sees it as a way to 1) Get Sophie the opportunity that she wants to branch out and 2) it's something that Susie would get the fee for, not Harry.
  • The manager of record at the time a contract is signed gets 100% of the agent's fee until the contract expires even if the talent has severed the relationship. Since the management and employment contracts don't necessarily have the same expiration dates this happens frequently when artists change management. Harry wanted to rub Susie's face in the fact that she thought she had screwed him, but he still had the rights to Sophie's income for another 5 years. The play wasn't covered under the terms of her contract with Harry, because Harry never intended to put her in serious theater. That's the reason why Harry made the crack off the bat that Susie could “have Strindberg” at the end of their conversation with the lawyers: he would allow Sophie to do the Strindberg play with Susie without a breach of contract. Harry knew that Sophie would be terrible, especially with a Strindberg play. He knew she would fail so she let her fail with Susie.
    • Given all this, Susie likely wasn't making anything from Sophie. However, had the play turned out to be a hit, Susie might have been entitled to a substantial fee as Sophie's agent and perhaps even a finder's fee for putting the whole thing together for the producers. Harry all but insinuates this when Susie meets with him early in season 4.

Susie, do you read the fine print?

• Susie attended law school. How does she keep missing compensation plans in contracts (being paid in tampons, syrup etc.) She's smart enough to realize she can't handle money (see her gambling and apartment) but I have a hard time making sense of some of the situations she gets herself in. Susie seems too smart for much of it.
  • It's possible Susie attended law school, but coming from the wrong side of the tracks, it’s very unlikely that 1) she went to a prestigious one with good academia, and 2) actually ever finished. She only mentioned going to law school, not ever about finishing.
  • Susie missing massive things - like signing the contract with Shy to put yellow teddy bears in Midge's hotel rooms, and getting paid in product for the radio work - can be interpreted as her overlooking a lot of stuff in their contracts to try and get money fast for her gambling problems without Midge noticing, and to pay for her apartment. She likely didn’t even get a proper contract for the voiceover acts that paid in tampons and syrup. That said, though, Susie not reading the fine print was something set up in season 2, which was about both Midge and Susie getting better at their jobs. Remember that in "Someday..." when the asshole manager refused to pay Midge because she and Susie got stuck in traffic coming through the Lincoln Tunnel, Midge was surprised to learn that Susie hadn't been getting contracts signed with the venues she was playing in. Susie not reading the fine print also conveniently provided Shy and Reggie with a means of firing Midge from the tour after the Apollo performance without fear of legal recourse.
  • Susie never attended law school. That particular line was sarcasm, pure and simple. There is ZERO evidence Susie knows her way around a contract. In fact, Susie's not a very sharp manager either. She's got the right property (Midge) but not the skills. What she knows about entertainment she knows from the POV of a booker.

Midge's contract with Shy

• How is it possible that Midge's renewal contract was not signed? She used it as collateral for her apartment with Moishe. As the shrewd business man that he is, wouldn't he have realized/demanded that it wasn't executed before selling? Also, that's the dumbest reason to void a contract, Reggie, "that it wasn't signed". If there a poison pill clause that says that Midge can be released from her contract if Shy feels she steps out of line, which was missed due to Susie being too busy/inexperienced with the legality of contracts, I might've bought it.
  • Blame Shy's handlers, who were looking for an opportunity to cut Midge from the tour once they learned she knew he was gay.

Sophie's comedy act

• How could Sophie make a successful comedy act based on a character from a completely different life from her? She's really sheltered and her connection to reality is tenuous, how would she know how to make even shallow observational humor jokes?
  • Obfuscating Stupidity maybe? It wouldn't surprise me at all if she greatly exaggerated how out-of-touch she was as both an intimidation tactic and defence mechanism.

If you fire Midge, wouldn't she go to the tabloids even louder?

• Isn't it a strategic risk? Firing a disgruntled comic who already hinted at their sexuality could just go straight to the tabloids out of anger.

Season 4

Season 5

Why didn't Zelda have any wedding guests?

• Zelda's wedding just has the main cast there. Where is Zelda's groom? Had Zelda made no other friends? Also, doesn't Midge have a brother?

Why was Gordon the person they contacted when Midge was arrested by the Coast Guard?

• She was filling in for him at the time, it makes sense that he was the one they called

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