Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Having this extreme Ron the Death Eater vibe for Peter Pan makes him a good keeper for this trope.

Wait'll you see me propose Pan from The Grimm Fairy Tales comic series....he makes this one look soft.

But I'll give a yea to this one

It's not really that much a Ron the Death Eater because of the split of Pan's characterization into three people- in the original work Pan had a capricious, amoral personality along the lines of The Fair Folk, which is how the evil Pan of the show is characterized- just immoral instead of amoral.

It's also kind of interesting because the show (understandably) often celebrates belief, especially belief in the non-mundane. Pan is a deconstruction of this, someone whose strong belief makes him completely egotistical and uncaring about anyone else's interests.

After reading The Fair Folk description of Peter Pan, I'm gonna have to give it to you. It's like they took the character from the play and novel and stripped all the redeeming qualities from him.

Ah, so we're talking Peter Pan/Malcolm from Once Upon A Time? Now that his arc is done, I feel he definitely qualifies. I might look back through the episodes and list his heinous deeds, but a few things that stand out to me that makes his Complete Monster status clear:

1. His sole redeeming quality was up in the air for a while - whether or not he truly loved his son, Rumpelstiltskin. While his abandonment of him was selfish, he rationalized it by saying that it was for his son's own good since he himself was never fit to be a father, and he re-named himself Peter Pan after the name his son gave his doll. According to him, that showed that he did care about his son and never stopped caring. However, in the mid-season finale that aired today, we learn how he really feels. From the moment he laid eyes on his infant son, he HATED the fact that he was now a father and had a son that would weigh him down in his life and crush his dreams. He calls his son a "wretched pink larva" to his face and asks "why can't I be free of you?" Then he physically assaults Rumpel and tells him that he's going to kill the people he loves most JUST BECAUSE they mean so much to him. Oh, and the curse he'd cast required the heart of the thing he loved most to work. Pan sacrifices his chief minion Felix (who is unwilling before he's killed) due to how much he's respected his unwavering loyalty and servitude to him. That successfully gets the curse to work. Which means he "loved" a loyal minion more than he ever did his own son. So yeah, no redeeming qualities. Every time he acts the least bit loving, it's all sweet talking and manipulation. He cares about no one but himself. Even Cora had some care for her daughter. This bastard wanted nothing to do with his own child.

2. I was most torn about how heinous he is when compared to villains like Regina, Rumpel, or Cora, who committed some of the most heinous actions on the show. But then I remembered the rule about a villains' scale and what he/she has to work with, and in the scale Pan occupies, he is the worst of the worst. The worst, most vile, and most heinous he can possibly be. He's pure evil and is seen as such by all the other characters, even other villains: namely Regina, Rumpel, and Hook. The only one who likes him is Psycho Supporter Felix, and boy does he pay for it.

3. Aside from belief as Hodor said, this show is VERY big on family. Emma, Snow, Charming, Henry, Regina, Rumpelstiltskin, Baelfire, and Hook are all family. Even pricks like King George are part of the family tree, and he had some value for his first adopted son. Pan is part of this family too and he is firmly against family. He never wanted to be a father, hated that he was a father, wanted nothing to do with his own son, tried to take his grandson away to be his slave, tried to kill his great-grandson so he could live and be immortal, and tried to both mentally and physically destroy the entire family, including his son. Many times, in fact. He also tore the Darling family apart by keeping eternally young Wendy prisoner for years and forcing her brothers to work for him as leaders of the Home Office scam. By going against one of the narrative's key themes and values, he's perhaps the most heinous villain by the standards of the series to date.

edited 15th Dec '13 9:57:10 PM by ANewMan

A huge for Pan. He's utterly despicable, a true Hate Sink, and I've never cheered louder for a villain's death. I know that isn't actually part of the criteria, but I wouldn't feel this way if he hadn't done horrible things that went beyond the pale. And I agree tonight's episode is the one that truly cemented his status.

I never watched Once Upon a Time... but holy hell. 110% for Peter Pan.

edited 15th Dec '13 10:26:48 PM by sanfranman91

Divergent

• Erudite's leader, and the main antagonist of the book, Jeanine. She engineers a revolt against the Abnegation-ruled government by mind-controlling all of Dauntless, resulting in countless innocent people killed.

Needs expansion.

The Dawn of a System

• Complete Monster: While Repin proved to be a cruel despot(compared to another Russian tyrant in fact), the worst is his successor Anastasia Volkova. She starts off by slitting the throat of an officer who failed her, kicking her off a cliff, and later ordering the beheading of his children. She is later seen drinking blood in that same chapter. Later on, in order to get China to fully commit to the war effort, she she nukes the Three Gorges Dam and frames the United States for it. It is also revealed that she orchestrated WWIII in the first place. Through the story became a Dead Fic, it's revealed by Word of God that when she loses she decides to nuke her own capital city to take her subjects and her enemies down with her.

She sounds plenty heinous, but the entry could use a rewrite.

Dragon Rider

• Complete Monster: Nettlebrand, also known by his nickname The Golden One. Let's see, he ate all of Twigleg's brothers and the alchemist who created him, hunted the dragons to the edge of extinction and drove the remaining ones into hiding, and he treats his Mooks like dirt. By extension, Nettlebrand's creator, who supplied all his... well, monster-ness just so he could create gold and strike it rich, and needed the horns of dragons to do it.

Hmm. Is his creator all that heinous in comparison

The Draka

• Louis Gayner. A female human Draka with a completely Alien morality enough to give Eric Von Shrakenberg the willies. To sum it up, she plans to remove sapiency from serfs and make them "organic machinery, nothing else", is pissed when serfs even talk around her, treat them as things (remember Silence of the Lambs?). To top that, in an all female boarding school, she is the ultimate heterosexual woman with no plans for reproduction, but skilled in genetics and planned the "New Race" project. Whom she cannot persuade, she duels to prove her point. So she singlehandedly represents all that is evil in Draka.

Loathsome bitch, but is she heinous enough?

Here are Pan's worst deeds (SPOILERS AHEAD!)

- When first we learn of him, he's sent his shadow to hunt for little boys who believe in magic and take them away from their families to Neverland. Pan does this in hopes that the boy will be the "truest believer" that he's looking for, the one who can keep the magic of Neverland, and him, alive. When the boys turn out not to be the one he wants, he still keeps them on Neverland because he permits no one to ever leave Neverland. It's said that every night, the air is filled with the cries of children who miss their families.

- When just the shadow wasn't working out, he started an elaborate scam where Felix, the lead lost boy, communicates with two men in the real world (later revealed to be the ageless John and Michael Darling) to locate believers in magic and recruit them into "the Home Office", an imaginary secret organization on a crusade to rid the world of magic. Pan hoped that this would eventually lead him to the truest believer. Two Home Office agents, Greg and Tamara, end up finding Henry in Storybrooke and are given orders to abduct him and bring him to Neverland, where the Home Office HQ is supposedly located because they hope to "destroy" the magic in Neverland. The two tools do just this and the result? Greg gets his soul ripped from him by Pan's shadow and Tamara gets shot down by Lost Boys with arrows. Pan then tricks Henry by posing as a renegade Lost Boy and gets him to show him the power of his belief before revealing his true identity and taking him to the Lost Boys' camp.

- When Henry's family comes to Neverland to rescue him, Pan begins a "game" where he plays mind games with them, hoping to destroy them mentally before destroying them physically. One of his lost boys shoots an arrow laced with Dreamshade poison at Prince Charming, fatally wounding him. Pan later shows up just to taunt Emma by telling her that he intends to corrupt her son Henry against her and also taunts her about her parents Snow and Charming by telling her "by the end of this, you won't just feel like an orphan. You'll be one!"

- At the Lost Boy camp, Pan starts to befriend Henry and manipulate him against his family, whom he tells him are not on Neverland now and are never coming for him. He sweet talks him and appeals to his hero complex by saying that the truest believer is fated to save the magic of Neverland and all of magic as we know it. But in truth, he has a more sinister purpose in mind for the unsuspecting Henry...

- In a flashback, we see that years ago Pan had gone to the Enchanted Forest and lured children of Hamlin away from their homes by playing magical pan pipes that only little boys who feel lost and alone can hear. This earned him the name "the Pied Piper of Hamlin." Rumpelstiltskin's son Baelfire was lured away with the other boys and Rumpel could hear the music too, so he followed. Rumpel confronts Pan, who explains that he'd usually been taking children to Neverland by visiting them in their dreams, but since they go there through dreams, the children can never stay. Using the excuse that he feels lonely (though he's more likely after the truest believer), Pan wants to take these "lost boys" to Neverland where they can serve him. He calls Rumpel "just a poor, unloved lost boy" too and taunts Rumpel with the idea that his son will willingly abandon him to go with him, since after all, everyone Rumpel has ever loved has abandoned him: his wife Milah and even his own father. (The significance of this moment comes into play later.)

- When Rumpel and Neal (adult Baelfire) attempt to rescue Henry, Pan separates them again, has his Lost Boys put Neal in a cage, and takes Henry back to the camp. Since Henry was unconscious the whole time, he never even knew his father and grandfather were there for him. Pan again lies that his family will never come back for him but that he will be there for him, then plays his pan pipes, which Henry begins to hear, showing that he now feels lost and abandoned.

- Pan plays a mind game with Hook by reminding him that he and his pirate crew used to work for him on Neverland and offering him another deal: he could let him and Emma (whom Hook had feelings for) leave Neverland together if he were to betray and kill Charming. Hook doesn't do this. So then Pan tells him that Neal, Emma's ex-lover and Henry's father, is still alive and captive. He gives the choice to Hook: tell Emma and ruin his chances of being with her, or keep it to himself. (Again, Hook's having none of it.)

- Pan has his shadow impersonate Rumpel's lover Belle, trying to screw with his head and eventually make him give up on rescuing his grandson and son so that he can just go back home to be with Belle. It almost works, but Regina puts a stop to it. (Pan himself laid the groundwork for this manipulation in an earlier scene, where he again taunted Rumpel about his father who abandoned him. Also, he keeps calling him "Laddie." Hmmm...)

- We find out where all the souls of people who've been killed by Pan's shadow go to - Dark Hollow, a forest in Neverland where the souls have all become shadows and just float there eternally.

- John and Michael Darling, leaders of the Home Office, reveal that they've been working for Pan for ages (his magic keeping them as young men) because Pan is holding their sister Wendy (who is also being kept young) hostage and will kill her if they don't do as he says. Meanwhile on Neverland, we see Wendy taken out of the cage she's kept in and ordered by Peter to deceive Henry into thinking she's dying and that only the salvation of magic can cure her. After Henry leaves the treehouse where she's positioned in, Pan comes and tells her that he's doing this because he needs Henry to "believe in him." He finishes by adding "Now get back to your cage."

- We learn from Wendy the truth about Pan's intentions: magic has been fading from Neverland and since Pan is tied to the spirit of Neverland itself, that means his power is fading and he's dying. He needs the heart of the truest believer to save Neverland and himself. The only way this can happen is if the truest believer, Henry, willingly gives Pan his heart. With this heart, Pan can become immortal, never able to age or die or lose his power again. But the trade-off would be that Henry will die in his place. So Pan is willing to destroy the life of this innocent boy and the lives of his family just to save himself and gain eternal life.

- Then we get Pan's backstory. He's in actuality Rumpelstiltskin's father Malcolm, a Fagin-like Manchild who spent his adult life playing gambling games, making money, and then squandering that money on more games. He wanted nothing to do with the responsibility that came with being an adult and a parent, so he dropped his kid off with some spinsters promising that he had to work but it would only be temporary. Which was a lie, since he goes right back to the pub to play around some more. When Rumpel obtains a magic bean, he tracks down his father and shows it to him, saying it can take them somewhere where they can live happily as a family again. Malcolm remembers his childhood fantasy land he used to visit in his dreams - Neverland. So they think lovely thoughts and use the bean to transport them to Neverland. Once there, Malcolm tries to fly but falls instead. He realizes that Neverland is a place for children: the same rules don't apply for adults. Then he remembers that pixie dust can make one fly, so he climbs a tree to get some pixie dust flowers at the top. But the spirit of Neverland, the Shadow, appears to him and tells him that adults are not welcome here. Malcolm momentarily disappears, but when he comes back, he tells Rumpel that he doesn't want to go anywhere else but this place that allows him to be free of his burdens and responsibilities. The Shadow then appears and grabs Rumpel, and Malcolm reveals that he made a pact with it: his son will be taken away from Neverland and Malcolm can become young and bonded with the Shadow as the ruler of Neverland. He justifies this with the idea that he was never meant to be a father and that Rumpel would be better off without him. The Shadow takes the screaming child away and the magic of Neverland turns Malcolm into a boy. Rumpel's doll, Peter Pan, is left behind. Malcolm picks it up and looks at it, knowing what to name himself now that he's gained a new identity.

- In the present, Rumpel confronts Pan. Now we know that he's planning to kill his own great grandson in order to save himself, which Rumpel won't allow. Rumpel accuses his father of never caring about him, but Pan insists he's always cared about him: that's why he named himself Peter Pan. Pan attempts to sweet talk Rumpel into letting his guard down and stopping his fight for Henry, promising they can be a family again: Rumpel can rule Neverland at his side. When Rumpel does not relent, Pan takes Pandora's Box from him and traps his son in it, reversing what Rumpel was planning to do to him. Then he cons Henry one last time, even when Henry's family is right there, and the boy takes out his own heart to give to Pan. Henry dies and Pan gets what he was wanting.

- Emma, Regina, and Snow chase Pan down. Pan hasn't completely consumed Henry's heart yet, so he's not quite immortal and there's still hope. But Pan ties the women up in the vines of the tree of regret, which will Mind Rape them with all their darkest thoughts and regrets. But Regina's love for Henry outweighs any regrets for the horrible things she'd done that led to her obtaining Henry as a son, so she breaks free and rips Henry's heart from Pan, also taking Pandora's Box from him. A furious Pan then come aboard Hook's ship to kill Henry, but Rumpel traps him inside Pandora's Box this time. However, it's revealed that Pan used his power to switch souls with Henry: Henry was sealed inside the box in Pan's body, while Pan is now in Henry's body, and he tells Felix that he has a new game plan.

- Once the cast is all back in Storybrooke, Pan, in Henry's body, summons his shadow and has it rip out the soul of Mother Superior/the Blue Fairy. This leads to Regina taking "Henry" with her to where she keeps her magic items. At that point, Pan attacks the unsuspecting Regina and takes an item from the crypt: the scroll with the Dark Curse incantation. The curse will transport Storybrooke away from this world and make everyone except the one who cast it lose their memories of their identities and everything they've ever held dear. That way, Pan can rule this town, which would become the new Neverland. He makes this curse at the Storybrooke well, and must finish it with the heart of the thing he loves most. When Regina cast this curse, she had to kill her father and sacrifice his heart to make it work. Felix wonders if Pan needs his son's heart, but Pan denies that he loves his son that much. He states that there are many different kinds of "love". In Pan's case, what he cherishes the most, aside from himself, is an unconditionally loyal servant. So he kills a frightened, pleading Felix and sacrifices his heart, completing the curse.

- Finally, Pan is restored to his own body by Rumpel. When Pan awakens and realizes this, Rumpel asks him if he regrets not living a life with him together as father and son. Pan reveals that from the moment he laid eyes on his infant son, he resented him because being a father would prevent him from living his own life and crush all his hopes and dreams. He likens the baby to a wretched parasitic pink larva that was sucking away at his desires. He asks his son "why can't I ever be free of you?" So Rumpel prepares to kill Pan, but Pan takes off the anti-magic bracelet Rumpel put on him and puts it on Rumpel instead, rendering him powerless. With a "down, boy!", he then throws his son across the room and kicks him. He tells him that the curse cannot be stopped and that while most citizens of Storybrooke will lose their memories, Rumpel's family will lose their lives. Pan's going to kill them just because they mean so much to his hated son. Pan goes out and freezes the main family in place, contemplating who to kill first: Belle or Neal? Since Neal is Rumpel's son (and Pan's grandson), Pan figures Rumpel loves him most and decides he'll take him out. But then Rumpel shows up and calls fourth his own shadow, who's still carrying the Dark One dagger. He then pulls Pan in an embrace and with the dagger, skewers him through the back and it goes through him as well, which will kill them both. Pan loses his power and turns back into adult Malcolm, who tries one last time to con his son into letting him go so they can start fresh. "We can have a happy ending!" he says. Rumpel responds with "But I'm a villain. Villains don't get happy endings." and then drives the dagger in deeper, killing his father and himself in a Heroic Sacrifice to protect his family and those he loved most.

It should also be pointed out that most of Regina's evil was created by Cora and Rumpel, most of Cora's evil was created by Rumpel and King Xavier, Hook's evil was driven out of a desire for revenge on Rumpel, Neal's bad actions were influenced by his trauma of being betrayed by Rumpel, Greg's evil was created by Regina, who was corrupted by Cora and Rumpel...notice a trend here? Rumpel is behind most of the evil on this show. So Pan, as Rumpel's father, is the evil behind Rumpel. His selfish actions made him the Unwitting Instigator of Doom that set off the entire plot and thus all the suffering in several character's stories, and he so ends up the Biggest Bad on the whole show at this point.

edited 16th Dec '13 10:44:51 AM by ANewMan

I couldn't agree more. He's really a monster.

That makes 7 for Pan.

For the villainous Peter Pan.

From YMMV.The Tudors:

• Complete Monster: Edward Seymour. While she is waving at the people, he casually informs Jane their father died a week ago and she missed the funeral. This is still a whole lot nicer than the way he treats prisoners, personally wielding the hot poker for instance despite relatively high station probably not requiring such.
  • His wife also doesn't seem to have any redeeming qualities.
    • Which is somewhat unfair for both of them. Edward Seymour wasn't the nicest guy around, but he wasn't anywhere near as bad as the show - people were pretty upset when he was executed and he was referred to as "the good duke." (The promotion to duke was after Henry died, so not on the show.) As for Anne... she was a bitch, yes, but not a cheating wife. She and Edward were actually a happy couple - or at least one would hope so, they had ten kids.
    • In season 4, Anne Seymour had a Pet the Dog moment when she eased the suffering of Anne Askew.
  • Thomas Boleyn, especially in the last episode of season 2. When the Duke of Suffolk comes to his cell to tell him about George's execution, Anne's impending execution, and his own punishment by having most of his lands taken away, what is his reaction? To ask whether he can keep his Earldom. Charles' reaction is a thing of beauty. Especially considering how much he hated Anne.
    • Another example occurs early in Season 2, after Thomas More's cook is sentenced to being boiled alive for trying to poison Thomas and Bishop Fisher, and the successful poisoning of four other bishops (all at Thomas Boleyn's instruction). He watches the execution all the whole way, right down to the cook's gurgling last moments as he is fully submerged in the boiling oil. Even Thomas Cromwell had to turn away from the sight.
  • Henry is pretty damn selfish and cold for basically the entire show. He will also take down anyone who gets in the way of the things he wants, even going so far as to having them killed, stripping them of everything they have, or letting them die alone. This is no better demonstrated than how he treats almost all of his wives when he tires of them. Not to mention the peasants who rebelled against his religious reformations...
    • And he's not adverse to ordering his subordinates to do whatever is necessary to get a "confession" from someone he's suddenly decided is his enemy.

That makes Edward Seymour, Anne Seymour, Thomas Boleyn, and Henry himself. I just started the series, but most of these seem like obvious cuts. Anne gets a Pet the Dog moment (which the example even mentions), the character page states Edward to care about his nephew, and the first episode alone has Henry Pet the Dog when he sees his first daughter by Catherine. Does Thomas count? I suspect one major concern with this series (as with The Borgias) is the liberal application of Gray-and-Grey Morality. Even the protagonists are selfish power schemers, so it would be hard for a villain to stand out in this type of setting if there even is one with pure evil motives and no redeeming traits.

YMMV.Lockout lists the space station prisoner Hydell in a one-sentence example. I think he qualifies, given that he's portrayed as nothing but a Stupid Evil bloodthirsty lunatic the entire movie. Rewrite:

• Ax-Crazy prisoner Hydell from Lockout, who just enjoys the killing and mayhem and undermines his brother Alex's more pragmatic plans even when it's clear he's actually hindering his own chances to escape. He also makes no distinction between hostages and guards and his fellow prisoners, killing anyone who annoys him. He tries to rape Emilie as soon as the riot starts. When Hydell's brother can't find Snow and Emilie after their escape fast enough for his liking, Hydell reaches her through the space station's intercom and starts shooting a hostage every three seconds until she reveals her location, then kills them all anyway after she does. He kills Alex near the end when he again won't allow Hydell to rape Emilie.

The write-up for the previously-approved Freddy Krueger could also use a rewrite, given that it leaves out some of his most important crimes. Also, the remake version of Freddy is from a diffferent continuity. He would have to qualify seperately, as would the Freddy Entity from Wes Craven's New Nightmare, so I only included mainstream Freddy for now. Previous write-up:

• Freddy Krueger from A Nightmare on Elm Street was a child killer before he became zombified. "Bastard-Son-Of-A-Hundred-Maniacs" should probably clue you in. Before his death, he kept a scrapbook of the "Have you seen this..." pictures of his child victims, and licked them. Less so as the sequels went on, when he became a bit of a buffoon too Faux Affably Evil for his own good - although he was still a nasty piece of work. Even in the utterly narm-filled Freddy's Dead: The Final Nightmare, he had his moments, like when he taunts Tracy by appearing as her sexually abusive father ("Give daddy some honey...no one has to know...") He's back to Complete Monster in the 2010 reboot. He punctures one of his victims through the heart, then taunts him on the fact that his brain will keep going seven minutes after his heart stops beating. He keeps Nancy alive solely so she can remember him molesting her, before he rapes and kills her.

And the rewrite:

• Freddy Krueger, the dream-invading serial killer antagonist of the A Nightmare on Elm Street franchise. "Bastard-Son-Of-A-Hundred-Maniacs" should probably clue you in. He was a child killer BEFORE he became a ghost. He kept a scrapbook of the "Have you seen this..." pictures of his child victims and licked them. After his death he makes a deal with demonic forces to literally become, in his own words, "the stuff nightmares are made of". He uses his newfound powers to find increasingly creative ways to torture and murder his dozens of victims for his own amusement by using their primal fears against them, all the while cracking really sick jokes. Then he harvests the teenagers' souls and keeps them in a perpetual And I Must Scream state inside his body to drain them for energy. Less so as the sequels went on, when he became a bit of a buffoon too Faux Affably Evil for his own good — although he was still a nasty piece of work. Even in the utterly Narm-filled Freddy's Dead: The Final Nightmare, he had his moments, like when he taunts Tracy by appearing as her sexually abusive father ("Give daddy some honey...no one has to know...") Freddy is one of the few Slasher Movie killers with a distinct and talkative personality, and has always simply been a sadistic monster who extends his victims' suffering for its own sake.

edited 16th Dec '13 12:59:05 PM by Morgenthaler

Re Pan, someone needs to write a good, concise description of him and his deeds (not sure I'm up to it).

Also, in terms of possible redeeming qualities:

• The thing with Felix is interesting because in theory, it shows he cares about Felix, because in order for the curse to work, he had to kill the thing he loved most. However, the way the scene plays out doesn't really support it. It almost seems like some Loophole Abuse was going on- Pan loves himself the most so he was able to sacrifice the person who loves him the most. Barring that, if he does "love" Felix, it doesn't really rise above somewhat appreciating his loyalty.
• Pan also has an instance in a flashback of dealing fairly with Hook and his brother, and attributes it to being one of those days where he's in a good mood and doesn't feel like being evil. I don't think "not being evil out of boredom" counts as a redeeming moment.

Pan wants to keep the magic alive...Well-Intentioned Extremist?

Not at all. I actually misremembered: he only wants to save his own life and his magic power. Ever since Malcolm bonded with the Shadow, who was the physical manifestation of Neverland itself, he became tied to the island and in control of all it's magic. But the Shadow showed him right after he became Peter Pan that as Neverland's magic hourglass slowly, sloooowly ran out, Pan would lose his power and his life. Once he dies, Neverland would go back to being the lighter place it was before Pan took over. So really, the magic that existed before Peter Pan would still be around: Pan would just be dead and all the lost boys would be free and all that. So then Pan vowed to become immortal. Pan was lying to Henry when he said he wanted to save the magic of Neverland and all magic in existence. It was always all about himself. This is also why he said he wanted Henry to "believe in him." The truest believer had to willingly give his heart to Pan in order for Pan to gain supreme power. Henry would not willingly give it up unless he believed that Pan stood for a truly good cause - a cause for a greater good, rather than pure selfishness.

And the Felix thing - that he killed Felix to sacrifice his heart to the curse and it worked (unlike, say, Regina sacrificing the heart of her favorite childhood horse, which did not work) showed that Felix was the only other human being aside from himself that he considers he "loves the most." And he spelled out that he loved him as a loyal follower: he loved that certain thing about Felix, rather than actually loving him as a person or anything. And this also shows how little he feels about his own son. When you place more value on a minion than you do your own child, you know you're messed up.

I don't think "not being evil out of boredom" counts as a redeeming moment.

Yeah, that would count as much as The Joker not being so evil out of what he finds "funny" or not. It's pure insanity, not true goodness in his heart.

edited 16th Dec '13 12:58:07 PM by ANewMan

fair enough, but it still seems like he's trying to save his own life.

Well yes, in the sense that his goal is to be immortal.

I don't think maintaining immorality counts as a redeeming motivation. I can't say why, but it feels different than situations of someone who is ill and does evil in order to survive.

He IS trying to keep himself alive. So he's willing to kill his great grandson, his grandson, and his son, and everyone related to or connected to them just so he can live forever and live out his childish, responsibility-free fantasy life forever, complete with continuing to hurt others and enslave children taken from their families without consequences. He's a sociopath who is doing everything for purely selfish reasons, in stark contrast to the sacrificial love that's displayed by the rest of his family. And really, there was nothing saying he needed to torture and kill others to get to his end goal. He just did anyway For the Evulz.

And really, "gain immortality and avoid death" is about as sympathetic with Pan as it was with Freeza and Lord Voldemort.

edited 16th Dec '13 1:27:39 PM by ANewMan

Okay, then That show seems twisted.

Gonna give a yea to everything Morgenthaler said, Hydell, Krueger and we should cut every example from The Tudors ASAP. Thomas Boleyn is an asshole who pimps his daughters to the king and has a firm Lack of Empathy but nothing overtly heinous for the show

To be included in the New 52 continuity section, what must a DC villain do to as of yet? Darkseid still seems to be the same person as he was before Flashpoint happened if the Forever Evil tie-in is canon.

edited 16th Dec '13 3:48:45 PM by despoa

Just meet the criteria laid out, like The Joker, Marlo and Arcane did

At least 9 for Pan now. Any ? Any one more ?

To help matters, here's excerpts of his dialogue from his final episode:

Pan: Of course. To look at my son, here at the end....and really see him...and think about what might have been. Is that what you want? Because I do. I remember looking at you, the littlest babe with those big, big eyes just full of tears...pulling at me. Pulling away my name, my money, my time....pulling away any hope of making my life into something better for myself. (his voice cracks, getting emotional) This pink, naked, squirming little larva that wanted to eat my dreams alive and never stop! Wh-what are you now? A couple hundred? Why can't I be free of you?

This is said by Pan to his son.

Later, after he's thrown his son across the room and kicked him when he's down, and Rumpel says he's not giving up because he's come too far for his family...

Pan: For your son? No...it's too late. Soon that fine green smoke will fill their lungs and fog their brains. And unlike the rest of this town, I'm not just going to take their memories, no. 'Cause of their special meaning to you, I'm going to take their lives. And you won't do a thing to stop me! You know why? Because without magic, you are right back to where you started - the village coward!

Of course, all this can't even do justice to how Robbie Kay performs these scenes. Just...damn. (Look up Pan & Rumple 3X11 on Youtube. You should find the scene.)

edited 16th Dec '13 4:30:20 PM by ANewMan

@despoa

They have to prove they are the same as they were beforehand (or alternately, be a very different character from who they were beforehand). Darkseid, as portrayed in the Justice League comics in New 52 was Generic Doomsday Villain at its worst. If he's done something worse now, that's great, though I'd still hold off until we have enough continuity to work with.

I'll also vote for Pan.