Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Yeah, STO has come up before, and the write-up for Col. Hakeev by Iaculus back on May 25 didn't get any objections to adding him to the list.

While strolling through this thread, I've found Sandbox.Monster Other Media. Assuming that all the examples were agreed to, are there plans for it to be launched?

That's the first I've heard of it to be honest. It looks like it's just combining several subpages with a low example count together.

Re: STO: Fine by me, just checking.

That was the goal. It just got lost in the shuffle.

Heck, I don't see why we can't use Folder Control and add Mythology & Religion to the Other Media.

I wondered if we could discuss the examples on Breaking Bad. I think this is one of those cases where the series is very dark, so there's a high bar for heinousness, and some even if they don't have redeeming qualities, examples might not be sufficiently heinous.

Here are the current examples (Walt, the Villain Protagonist was just added):

• Complete Monster:
  • The unnamed dealers who use an 11-year old as a dealer and hitman, before executing him in a playground.
  • Don Eladio, head of the cartel and Smug Snake extraordinaire.
  • The Salamanca cousins, sadistic murderers with no visible emotions.
  • Gus may have finally crumbled the ample amount of cushion his magnificent bastardry granted him by telling Walt that he will murder Hank, and murder Walt's entire family if he interferes. He places special emphasis on Walt's infant daughter, after having stated before that he would not order the murder of a child.
  • WALT. He let a woman choke to death in front of him, he caused two planes full of people to crash and die (inadvertently, yes, but he wasn't even sorry), he's killed numerous people, including his own accomplices, manipulated a 25-year-old kid who worshiped him into committing murder, and poisoned a small child. Not to mention his treatment of his wife and his heedlessness at the jeopardy he's placed his whole family in. It should be clear by now that he is the true Big Bad of the series.

My thoughts (I believe some of these might have been previously discussed):

• Unnamed people- sound legitimately terrible but seem too minor to qualify and insufficiently heinous for the series.
• Don Eladio- IIRC, this character stresses the importance of looking out for your family/cares for his family (even though he was abusive)
• The Salamanca cousins- not sure
• Gus- cared about his former partner in the business, possibly romantically; while his threats (which I'll assume were sincere) place him over the Moral Event Horizon, Walt actually probably surpasses him in evilness.
• Walt- he actually ends up setting the bar for heinousness in the series, but he does love and care for his family and may or may not have some other standards depending on when in the show you catch him.

Edit- Also saw this on Good Omens:

• Complete Monster: Crowley notes that, unlike most demons, Hastur and Ligur actively like being evil. Also the Four Horsepeople (except Death, and maybe Pollution ^note His namesake happens all around him without his intervention - he does actively pollute in dangerous ways, but it's hinted that it's just his form of Fantastic Arousal) Famine in particular gets pleasure out of watching anorexic people starve themselves to death, while War destroys peaceful countries so she can sell them weaponry.

Hastur and Ligur are pretty much run of the mill thugs in terms of characterization and don't do anything particularly nasty on screen (I believe one or both kills a room of telemarketers but the text doesn't treat that as particularly bad). Plus, IIRC, there's some hints of them having a Villainous Friendship.

As for the other Horsepersons, they are all Anthropomorphic Personifications, so I'd question their degree of moral choice.

edited 19th Aug '13 12:42:29 PM by Hodor

The Salamanca twins want to avenge the death of their cousin Tuco, so they don't count. As you said, Gus also cared about his partner, and Walt just said in the last episode that he can't have his brother in law murdered because he's family.

I'm not sure regarding the two unnamed dealers. On the one hand they don't have much personality, but on the other hand they're pretty heinous for people at their level (street level dealers) compared to the drug lords and cartel hitmen that make the rest of the list.

Regarding Don Eladio: I'm not sure, but I think you're mistaking him for Hector Salamanca, the twins' father and Tuco's uncle, who does take family very seriously. I don't remember don Eladio saying anything to that effect.

edited 19th Aug '13 1:09:17 PM by Nithael

Thanks for the feedback.

Yes, I was mistaking the Don for Hector. Don't know much about the Don.

RE the the dealers, I believe its pretty typical for dealers to use children as couriers (because they won't be seriously punished if caught with drugs), but using them as killers is pretty heinous. I can see them counting under the "heinous for their situation" heading- but then again, Gus and Walt also Would Hurt a Child.

edited 19th Aug '13 12:58:38 PM by Hodor

Eladio isn't there much. he gives the obvious order for Gus's partner to be killed and is certainly an awful dick about it, but he has essentially two scenes.

As for the Cousins...just wanting to avenge Tuco doesn't mean they don't count. They never show any love for Tuco whatsoever (or anyone). The closest they get to emotion is anger. It's not portrayed as a redeeming quality for them.

As for the drug dealers...I'm sorry to say they don't count. Walt has been shown to poison a child to get what he wants (albeit not fatally), and Todd has been shown to casually shoot one dead for seeing what he wasn't supposed to.

edited 19th Aug '13 1:37:57 PM by Lightysnake

I miss all the fun stuff while on vacation.

Re Saw:

• Xavier: Cut. No matter how unsympathetic and murderous he is, he's driven to it by living on borrowed time. He also fails the heinousness standard compared to any of the Jigsaw killers.
• Hoffman: While I agree he meets the heinous standard, I wonder if he still loves his sister. The whole reason he committed his first murder was to avenge her death, and nobody has ever brought up proof that he definitively does not love her any more. Until someone can offer that proof, I'll vote cut on him as well.

Re Prison Break:

• Christina: Cut unless someone can give her a decent write-up.
• Wyatt: Keep but I'll cut the gravedancing if there's no objections.
• T-Bag: This one I'm also going to cut if there are no objections. No aversions allowed.
• Kellerman: Cut unless someone has arguments for his inclusion.

Re Pretty Cure:

• Akudaikahn: Cut for being insufficiently heinous.
• Gohyaan: Keep for being an Omnicidal Maniac.
• Shadow: Cut for being kind of a generic villain and Offscreen Villainy.
• The Director: Keep.
• Kawarino: Cut for being insufficiently heinous.
• Joker: Keep.
• Jikochu: Cut for now. Wait and see if he still measures up.

@15669: Damnit Laymon, you broke lighty! Someone get this man a cup of cocoa, stat!

@15678: Cut Lucas for caring about his mother.

@15700: Cut Peter for the same reasons as why Xavier should be cut, as well as for having redeeming qualities. Honestly he sounds more of a woobie than a monster.

@15708: Ugh, something about that laugh just makes my teeth grind. Can't imagine reading any of the Facemaker's dialogue would be fun with that damn laugh coming up 37 times. Funny find though, man.

Re Breaking Bad: I believe we've gone over Breaking Bad a few times before, but just in case...

• Child-killing Dealers: Cut for being insufficiently heinous and having insufficient characterization.
• Don Eladio: Cut for being insufficiently heinous. If I've read right, the only major thing he's done is have Gus's friend/lover(?) murdered for Gus trying to make a business deal with him.
• Gus: Cut for caring about his friend.
• The Cousins: Now from what I've read on these guys, they are the only ones I can conceivably see keeping just due to the sheer body count they accumulated onscreen. They decapitate Tortuga, a drug dealer turned informant, then place his head on a tortoise's shell. Then they put C4 under the tortoise, which detonates and kills 1 DEA agent while wounding 3 others. They murder 9 Mexican illegal immigrants they had crossed the border with (and the driver), they murdered an old woman for her house then killed the police officer who came to investigate, and, while attempting to kill Hank, killed an unarmed bystander. During these actions they display no real emotion. The only thing that could act against them is their reason for trying to avenge their cousin, Tuco, whether it's out of love and loyalty or just a matter of principle.
• Walt: Sounds like no matter how bad he gets, he still sounds like he has some redeeming qualities. His actions due greatly increase the heinousness standard of the series though.

Re Good Omens: Cut Hastur and Ligur. Unsure about the four horsemen.

Also, I'm going to submit my Noah Cross write-up to the Monster.Film page since no one has objected. Does anyone have any opinions on my new write-up for Amon Goeth? So far lightysnake is the only one who's voted in favor of it. Here's the old one below...

• Amon Goeth is a classic example. Unlike most examples, the dead-eyed concentration camp commander has sympathetic moments, a sort of Morality Pet in his heroic friend Oskar Schindler, and comes off as a deeply troubled human being who doesn't cross the Moral Event Horizon until about halfway through the movie. Schindler describes him fondly as "a wonderful crook, who loves money, wine and the ladies," but we are shown a very different side to Amon - and the scariest thing about him is how completely irrational and unpredictable his cruelty is. The most infamous moment is either when he sends away trainloads of Jewish children to be gassed (while laughing at the crying parents) or when he goes out on his villa balcony in the morning with a sniper rifle and starts shooting random Jews only for sport.

And here's my new proposed entry...

• Amon Goeth from Schindlers List is the Ax-Crazy Nazi Lieutenant in charge of the liquidation of the Krakow Jewish ghetto and is the overseer of the Plaszow concentration camp. Goeth's true nature is first exposed when he encounters a Jewish forewoman protesting that the foundation of the structure in the camp they're building is unsound, and this will lead to the building's eventual collapse. Goeth's response is for her to be killed in front of the other workers. He then orders his men to follow the dead woman's instructions anyway. This is merely the first instance in a long line of pointless and unpredictable violence from Goeth. Some of his most infamous crimes are shooting prisoners with a sniper rifle for sport, personally killing twenty-five men in a rage after one man from their barracks managed to escape from his work detail, and laughing at crying parents as he sends away trainloads of their children to be gassed. Every time a possible flicker of humanity is exposed in Goeth it is quickly subverted then extinguished. When Oskar Schindler tries to convince Goeth that true power is mercy, Goeth briefly tries out being merciful, even sparing the life of a Jewish boy who was unable to clean the stains in Goeth's bathtub. Then, on a whim, he decides to murder the boy anyway. When he finds himself attracted to his Jewish maid, Helen, he attempts to clumsily come on to her, only to eventually blame her for his own sexual feelings and savagely beat her afterwards. Following the events of the film, the viewer is left with an impression that Goeth is a pure sociopath driven only by his erratic whims. Ultimately Goeth's only able to ape the basic mannerisms of a human being and finds himself completely unable to understand basic compassion and human decency when he's confronted with it.

edited 19th Aug '13 2:55:29 PM by OccasionalExister

At the same time, some rewrites:

• The Night Angel Trilogy features a trio of right monsters.
  • Hu Gibbet is widely considered the second best assassin in the land, but informing him he's second best will result in your own drawn out execution. Unlike the cold, business-like Durzo Bint, Hu Gibbet is a sadistic monster who derives pleasure from his work, and while the former makes every effort to avoid collateral damage, Hu Gibbet goes out of his way to butcher everyone in the vicinity on his jobs. At one point,Hu Gibbet kills one hero, Logan's, entire family and household and gruesomely strings up the corpses for everyone's viewing pleasure. His apprentice, Vi, fairs no better under him and has been the subject of verbal, physical and sexual abuse for her entire tenure as his student
  • Roth, once known as Rat, is another. The son and Bastard Understudy of God King Garoth Ursuul, Rat was a sexual sadist who had raped children of both genders since he was young. In the present, Roth betrays his home kingdom to his father's soldiers, leading to many deaths, and is fond of killing peasants so he can eat them.
  • Finally, God King Garoth Ursuul who presides over a legacy of rape, torture, murder and slavery. Garoth attempts to rape or force the submission of any woman he comes across and makes those hes tired of into furniture. Under his reign, widespread war crimes are common, and people are killed or raped at the drop of a hat. Garoth's entire reasoning? It Amused Me.

• Butch Cavendish of The Lone Ranger is one of the darkest villains to ever appear in a Disney film. Rumored to be a Wendigo for his unusual habits, Butch shows why when after gunning down the hero, Reid's brother, Butch cuts out his heart and eats it. Butch uses fear to oppress any hint of rebellion and will kill at any hint of complaint. At one point, he even kills a laborer for nothing more than saying the entrance of a cave he wanted entry to was blocked. With his evil and his dark habits, it's easy to see why Butch is seen as a flesh eating monster of myth by Tonto.

edited 19th Aug '13 3:47:50 PM by Lightysnake

Excellent write-ups for the Night Angel villains. I do have some suggestions for Butch Cavendish though. In the entry I'd mention his slaughter of Tonto's tribe after they had saved his life in order to keep the location of the silver mine hidden. I'd also mention his role in instigating the war which wiped out the Comanche by framing them for attacks on settlements that his gang carried out, just so he could take all the aforementioned silver.

edited 19th Aug '13 3:51:56 PM by OccasionalExister

• Butch Cavendish of The Lone Ranger is one of the darkest villains to ever appear in a Disney film. Rumored to be a Wendigo for his unusual habits, Butch shows why when after gunning down the hero, Reid's brother, Butch cuts out his heart and eats it. Butch uses fear to oppress any hint of rebellion and will kill at any hint of complaint At one point, he even kills a laborer for nothing more than saying the entrance of a cave he wanted entry to was blocked. Butch conspires to start a war with, and wipe out the Comanche people for the silver in the mines by leading attacks on innocent people in settlements, framing the Comanche. In the past, when the Comanche saved Butch's life, he repaid them by slaughtering them, earning Tonto's undying hatred. With his evil and his dark habits, it's easy to see why Butch is seen as a flesh eating monster of myth by Tonto.

edited 20th Aug '13 2:29:36 PM by Lightysnake

How come Joker's not on the anime monster page?

The Joker or is this some other character with that name? (I know there's a Joker in Read or Die but I don't think he's a Complete Monster)

Maybe the Pretty Cure one?

@15726: Entry looks excellent to me.

Trinity Blood

• Complete Monster: Dietrich and Isaak both qualify. Dietrich has a very good Freudian Excuse and there is his Heel–Face Turn in Stories Untold, if only because he was afraid of Cain. While Isaak is described by Word of God as being alike in motivation to Karla the Grey Witch, his Well-Intentioned Extremist agenda hasn't been revealed because of Yoshida's death.
  • Cain achieved Complete Monster status when his nanomachines were fully activated, overriding any conscience or empathy he previously had.

Wow. So it's essentially saying "These two qualify except they don't."

I'll go cut Akudaikahn, Shadow, and King Jikochuu. Here's a rewrite for Gohyaan.

• Gohyaan from Futari wa Pretty Cure Splash★Star initially just seems to be Akudaikahn's sly right-hand man that his other minions pick on. He starts to show his true colors when he takes Michiru and Kaoru to back Dark Fall while they're making their Heel–Face Turn, where they're seemingly killed. Then he crosses the Moral Event Horizon when he captures and tortures Flappy and Choppy for information. When the Pretty Cure defeat Akudaikahn, Gohyaan kills him and reveals he created Akudaikahn and Dark Fall to destroy Earth and the Land of Fountains. He then turns the Earth into a wasteland. Why does he do all this? Because he remembers the universe before it had any life and wants to return it to the silence it once was.

How's that?

Geez, sounds like none qualify. Dietrich sounds like he has sympathetic and redeeming qualities, Isaak was a Well-Intentioned Extremist, and Cain sounds like he loses moral agency with the nanomachines overriding his moral judgment.

edited 19th Aug '13 5:59:06 PM by OccasionalExister

I'm sorry, I meant the one from Pretty Cure not the comic book one just to clarify. I've seen him on the YMMV page but not on the anime monster page. Again, sorry for the mix up.

Alright, I think for Breaking Bad if anyone counts, it'll be the Cousins, so here's a preliminary writeup:

• From Breaking Bad we have the terrifying Salamanca twins, Leonel and Marcus. Devotees of Santa Muerta, the Mexican God of Death, the two are ruthless enforcers for the cartel. We get a hint of how vicious they can be when they decapitate an informant for the DEA named Tortuga and for a touch of black comedy put his head on a tortoise rigged with a bomb to catch the Federales. After arriving in America after the death of their cousin Tuco, the two slaughter every immigrant they arrived with, then kill an old woman to take her house as a base, and the police officer who comes to investigate. The two later stalk and attempt to murder DEA agent Hank Schrader, treating everything with nothing more than emotionless, single-minded ruthlessness.

And for Elysium, I'll spoiler some of it.

• Elysium brings us the truly psychotic Agent Kruger who is first introduced shooting down refugee ships full of men, women and children. We are informed after of Kruger's history of human rights violations, a reputation that he proceeds to live up. He butchers hero Max de Costa's allies and then when he suspects that Max has gone to see his old friend Frey and her daughter, he threatens and beats Frey in front of the girl, mocking the girl to close her eyes as he claims he hates to commit violence in front of kids, before attempting to molest Frey. After Frey scorns him, he declares he'll make sure her daughter is never healed. When he's chastised for his failures by his superior Delacourt, Kruger simply murders her and then declares he'll take over Elysium itself to give it the ruler it deserves.

edited 20th Aug '13 12:03:00 AM by Lightysnake

That example needs Namespace fixing before it can go anywhere.

Oh, and looks good, Sterok!

Also with The Lone Ranger, Lightysnake. Main/ redirects to the franchise, not the film. Looks good otherwise.

With another 4-0 vote to cut for Peter, I'll submit that to the edit thread shorty.

For Amon Goeth's rewrite.

Two questions:

• How does Even Evil Has Standards figure into the trope? Is it enough of a redeeming quality to motivate a cut?

• Can group examples on YMMV pages be cut as misuse without deliberation?

Phantasmagoria 2: A Puzzle of Flesh lists all three villains. Admittedly I'm only familiar with the game through Spoony's playthrough (and hell, was it funny), but there's issues with at least one. They're also completely spoilered out as to make them useless as examples, but that's another matter.

• Complete Monster:
  • Doctor Marek, for torturing Curtis Craig, for treating his patients like their lives mean nothing, for using Doctor Harburg as a pawn, and for sending his own patients to their deaths as guinea pigs for Paul Allen Warner's experiment.
  • Paul Allen Warner, for murdering Curtis's father because he objected to the direction the experiment went in, for making his employees come to work the next day after one of their own was murdered, for treating Curtis like a guinea pig and not a human being, for sending Curtis through the dimensional portal, for using the dimension to create illegal drugs through his own pharmaceutical company, for bragging to Curtis about what he had done with smug satisfaction and not a flicker of remorse, and so on. Paul Allen Warner is simply so vile and repulsive that he totally deserved his ultimate fate (see the Body Horror entry).
  • Finally, the Hecatomb, for murdering five people (that is shown; it is strongly implied that there were more), and for traumatizing Curtis Craig in ways that Doctor Marek and Paul Allen Warner did not. However, the Hecatomb also has Tragic Monster mixed in there, due to events described in the Tomato in the Mirror entry in the main article.

The Hecatomb is clearly a Tragic Monster with a huge Freudian Excuse (he was a boy offered up to the aliens and turned into a monster against his will and angry at the alien who unknowingly stole his life), so I vote to cut him. PAW is so irredeemably Obviously Evil that he's a clear keep. Marek is a somewhat lesser presence, but he's equally complicit in serving his patients up as alien lunch and really has no (sympathetic) backstory to speak of, so I'm also learning towards keep.

edited 20th Aug '13 4:07:30 AM by Morgenthaler