Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

It's also worth noting that Walker executed two slaves in cold blood just for stealing a few supplies.

Yeah, even reference to Real Life is begging for trouble. Old-timers may remember the time I had a spat with a troll who wanted to add Ted Turner for cancelling Swat Kats of all things (this was in the trope's Bad Old Days, long before this thread). It's an annoyance, but we'll have to live with it.

And for those wondering, I haven't forgotten about the Dark Dweller. I'll try to write him up this weekend.

Lightysnake's writeups: Walker looks fine; Jerry Dandridge I'll PM you a few small changes I'd make.

Crowley: That makes sense.

@11347: That may very well be the worst case scenario, it's almost scary. Keep the no real life examples.

Tell me about it; dude even edited my posts for the lulz (you could do that back then). Of course I'm one to talk since I did some editing of his posts as a somewhat juvenile retort...

And I think Pathfinder has a new winner introduced in its Inner Sea Bestiary: The nascent demon lord called the Nightripper. I'll describe him later on.

The Conspiracy Examples—Easy Cut. Since they're planning genocide and the final solution they're all pretty sick maniacs, however they never do anything onscreen other than that.

Also anything referencing Real Life, unless there is significant differences or if they are a fictional member of a real group, is cut. I will admit that I do not believe in real life C Ms as no one is wholly souless(the MEH exists IRL in my view through).

Also there would be huge Values Dissonance Can you imagine if a fan of the Ottomans tried to add Vlad the Impaler and an offended Romanian troper tried to add Mehmet the Conqueror? Or the hell that'd occur when someone added Genghis Khan? Or the flame war if someone added a crusader of a member of the Spanish Inquisition. And what if a descendent of the American Natives tried to add Christopher Columbus or Andrew Jackson(ok, it's generally now agreed that the former is a bastard who didn't really do anything truly positive, but how much a bastard and how much Values Dissonance exists is anyone's guess)

Hell, just imagine the modern examples! What if someone who is a leftist radical, on the high idealistic side of the Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism or came from a Latin American or third world country that suffered under US foreign policy tried to add Henry Kissinger(ppl from the PRC on this site might be the first to rebut here due to his work in opening relations with the PRC). None of us want to deal with the hell when a hard right winger or a radical progressive adds Barack Obama(they oppose him for different reasons) (Or someone adds George W. Bush?).

tl;dr: Real Life examples just don't work. I'm also gonna fix Frollo's entry on the YMMV page for Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame smply because it's natter and implying that there are CM in real life.

edited 11th Apr '13 12:55:17 PM by xie323

A whole while back (I think this was the time where I made my first appearance in this thread) it was decided that one of my entrys on the Marvel page, the second Hellfire Circle (aka the Hellfire Brats) didn't count because of the group-rule and because they weren't that heinous back then.

I want to re-visit this entry. Not on the whole group again (yes, I've learned) but on Kade Kilgore, the Black King (the leader) alone, he is the only character of the 4 fleshed out enough to count. Recently I read everything available about him and after processing everything, I think he really does qualify. He practically sets the new standarts for Enfant Terrible in the Marvel universe.

First we got his backstory (which we see on-screen in flashbacks). At the age of 8, he becomes obsessive with murder and hires a thug whom he watches killing random people nightly and bribes a guardsmen in a morgue in order to flay the corpses. His first own murder is a helpless, bedridden old man (who is demented and who thinks that Kade is his grandson) whom he suffocates with a pillow. A few years later, he makes his entrance at the Hellfire Club by offering the members there to kill his own father (the Black King back then), which he does. And after they make him the new Black King, he kills every last of them and instead surrounds himself with 3 other sociopathic kids (an ax crazy girl who likes to torture animals, a mad doctor who vivisects people for fun, and another kid who sold all of his brothers to a planet of cannibals in order to become the sole heir). After this, he starts profiting from mutant racism by producing new sentinels (especially during the Phoenix era) and launches brutal attacks on the X-Men several times. Once in jail, he bribes prisoners and corrupt guardsmen alike to orchestrate a brutal breakout and afterwards he doesn't pay them but has them torn apart by his bodyguards.

(Not the real write-up, just to give a short summary)

@Paireon

Going to have to say no to the Nightripper right now. While you could make a case that his crimes are onscreen, he's no worse than Treerazer, Zelishkar, Lorthact or any of the other nascent demon lords, daemonic harbingers, and infernal dukes who populate the series, and he pales when compared to most fullfledged demon lords, archdaemons, and archdevils. Heck, mortal villains like Tar-Baphon and Ruthazek may have a higher bodycount.

Not sure that stands out that much. The Hellfire club is filled with rich, evil, entitled pricks. Mastermind was a member. Selene was a member. Donald Pierce was a member, and he's about as bad as you can get. Not sure this Kade kid can hack it with that kind of competition.

edited 11th Apr '13 1:27:03 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Speaking of D. Pierce: If he's a cyborg, does he have moral capacity?

And BTW, I'm not saying add a Real Life section, but maybe just mention Goeth was worse? Eh, whatever.

Pierce is a human who was converted to a cyborg. And in Marvel, even artificial people have moral agency. Unless they're specifically programmed a certain way, and even then they can overcome it

I believe I have a nomine on my hands: Dracula from Blacula. I know, it's a horror commedy, but heres the thing, he turns Blacula into a vampire, imprisons him in a coffin to starve for all eternity (and because vampires are immortal, his suffering would last forever), and locks Blaculas wife up in a coffin without making her a vampire so she will starve to death and even if he ever gets free (which he does) is wife will be gone. The reason Dracula did all this? in additon to all his other evils, he was also a racist. I am aware that it is hard for horror villains to qualify because it would require a lot, and that Blacula is a commedy, but heres the thing, despite being a comedy, the film (and its sequel) can be serious at times (like many other comedies), Dracula is not played for laughs at all, in fact, he's one of the few things in the film that are played completely seriously, and unlike Blacula himself, Dracula has no redeeming qualities.

"The character is played straight at all times, He only gets a little screen time, but he is not played for laughs in any of it.

"The character is truly heinous by the standards of the story" He turned a man into a vampire, locked him in a coffin to starve for all eternity, and starved his wife to death. Blacula kils a few people to feed himself.

"They are completely devoid of altruistic qualities" Unlike Blacula, Dracula has nothing sympathetic to him.

edited 11th Apr '13 3:32:08 PM by bobg

Well, that settles it. Thanks

If in fact he IS played seriously, I vote

The long-awaited Cold Case and CSI writeups!

CSI

• Mandy and Cameron Klinefeld from season 4's "Assume Nothing" put the "unholy" back in Unholy Matrimony. A married couple united by a shared sexual fetish for rape and murder, the pair operate by abducting other husbands and wives, sexually torturing the women while making the men watch, with the ultimate goal of forcing them to Mercy Kill the women they love. They promise the husbands they can go free if they do this, but of course, they're lying.
• Season 12 Arc Villain Laura Gabriel is a ruthless arms smuggler and Big Bad Friend to Catherine Willows. Playing a meek and submissive wife to her sleazy private military firm head husband Mark, she uses this false personality to deflect blame off her and onto him as she funnels his company's weapons to The Mafia and The Cartels. When the investigation starts getting too close to the truth, she hires employees of the company to murder her own lawyer and all of his staff; following this, she kills the assassins and burns their bodies beyond recognition in order to fake her own death and that of her right-hand man. She intended for an enraged Catherine to summarily execute her husband, and also placed a contract on Catherine herself to clean up the last remaining loose end, not caring for her old friend in the slightest.

Cold Case:

• Josh Freely from season 1's "Fly Away" was the first and worst in what would become a long line of secondary villains more despicable than the actual killer. A social worker working with emotionally-ustable parents, he is in reality a brutal pedophile who uses his position to find new victims. Freely piles emotional abuse onto the parents, making them feel as though they're worthless, so they surrender their kids to him, and if that doesn't work he's more than happy to fudge his own records so his superiors order the children removed. His abuse eventually reaches the point that one such mother murders her daughter rather than let Freely take her.
• The season 1 finale, "Lovers' Lane," brings us Jim Larkin, a slovenly glutton and serial rapist. Too lazy to even abduct victims himself, he instead badgers his abused and weak-willed son to do so for him, usually unattractive teenage girls he pretends to befriend. His assaults are absolutely brutal, reaching the point at which he murders one of his victims simply for calling him "disgusting."
• Roger Mulvaney, of season 3's "A Perfect Day," is without question the worst Domestic Abuser in the series. A Dirty Cop who ruthlessly beats his wife and two daughters, he eventually, once she decides to leave him for another man, resolves that if he can't have them, nobody could, kidnapping the three of them and making his wife watch as he throws one of the girls from a tall bridge.
• Rayanne Leland from season 5's "Spiders" is a sugary-sweet stay-at-home mom who also happens to run a Neo-Nazi coven out of her basement. When her son Truitt murders a Hispanic woman, Truitt's girlfriend, Tamyra, turns to Rayanne for help, only to find to her horror that Rayanne wholeheartedly supports her son's actions, and calmly tells Tamyra that all Hispanics should be exterminated, her warm, loving smile never leaving her face. When Tamyra threatens to go to the police, Rayanne browbeats the most insecure and sympathetic member of the coven, Elliot, into murdering her.
• John Smith from season 5's "The Road" is the most horrific Serial Killer seen on the show. Disturbed since childhood, he described the sight of watching a woman drown while doing nothing to save her as the most beautiful thing he'd ever seen, and dedicated his adult life to replicating that "beauty." Abducting women who were perfectly happy with their lives, Smith brought them to special cellars where he sealed them off, watching as they went insane from isolation before finally leaving them there to starve.
• Daniel Patterson from season 5's "Slipping" is the ultimate gaslighter. Insanely jealous of his wife's skill at poetry, he hatched a plan to both steal her work for his own and get rid of her. With the aid of his slavishly-devoted housekeeper, he did everything in his power to drive his wife insane and ultimately to suicide, maintaining a facade of a caring husband all the while. When he failed to break her, he murdered her himself. To prevent his stepdaughter from knowing the truth he sent her to a notoriously harsh boarding school, believing his story that her mother committed suicide for 45 years.

Comments?

edited 11th Apr '13 5:14:08 PM by HamburgerTime

Question about Larkin: How can he be a rapist if he doesn't commit the crimes himself? Maybe that should be doesn't commit the ABDUCTIONS himself.

Yeah, he's too much of a drunk slob to leave his house so he bullies his son to bring victims back to him.

Ah, there's the change. Looks good.

Now, for Twenty Four, we have:

edited 11th Apr '13 5:16:44 PM by ACW

The worst is, perhaps, recurring villain Nina Meyers, who murders Jack's wife, participates in numerous terrorist actions, and allows the deaths of numerous innocents just for the money involved, without even the excuse of ideology many of the others have. Her death is one of the most satisfying in the entire series. (This is "grave dancing" that should probably be removed)

Season 3 terrorist Ramone Salazar. He shot and killed his own brother to advance a deal on acquiring the Cordelia virus for a huge payout. Granted, Hector was distressed that his girlfriend got killed minutes earlier in midst of the deal, but damn. That was COLD. Even Nina Myers looked horrified. (So, does that mean she has standards? Also, my indirect familiarity with the show made me think the Nina character loved Jack. Is that an accurate understanding?)

@11363: To clarify, the Klinefelds aren't disqualified because their "love" is expressed through acts of sadism right?

Yes. It's complete and utter Bellatrix-style love, but mutual.

Hodor: Honestly, I wouldn't say Nina looked 'horrified.' Shocked, certainly, that Ramon went that far, but not horrified. She's done worse.

And no, she doesn't love Jack. She's a stone cold sociopath and had attempted to kill Jack or engineer his death. She tried to kill his daughter and killed his pregnant wife. She hd an affair with and pretended to care about him, but that's it.

edited 11th Apr '13 6:17:01 PM by Lightysnake

Any other comments on the crime show writeups, or can we have them put up there?

@ Dr Psyche: About Kleinfelds: No no no, we talked about it. Hamburger Time said, if I recall correctly, that there was nothing like mutual love between them. I think you could find the post if your browse back in the discussion.

@ Hamburger Time: Cool write ups!

Re: The X-Files: There seems to be a pretty clear consensus. We're going with the Cigarette Smoking Man (the show's main antagonist connected to the conspiracy in the Myth Arc), Cecil L'Ively from "Fire" (a pyromaniac who tortured people by burning them alive and stalked women), Donald Pfaster (a necrophiliac whose fetish escalates into being a Serial Killer), Jack Franklyn from "Sanguinarium" (a demonic doctor who was killing patients in horrible ways to preserve his youth and looks), John Lee Roche from "Paper hearts" (a child molester who killed 16 girls), a colonel from "Fresh Bones" (a sociopath who tortured people in an immigration camp and was responsible for a death of a small boy and his soldiers who tried to stop him).

Some have a clear no and two might be added if anyone would make a better case for them (the child molester from "Oubliette" or John Barnett from "Young at Heart", but the arguments would have to be really convincing). I decided I would not push these two myself. ;-) Maybe some time later, but probably not.

I'll post the write-ups on them during the weekend for you to comment.

Yes! Forgot to include him. Pfaster's on the list as well.

edited 11th Apr '13 9:02:11 PM by XFllo

Looks good to me. I think Donald Pfaster was also confirmed to be a keep.

@11363: All those look good to me.

@11366: Most of those 24 examples are stubs so at the very least they'll have to be rewritten to be more comprehensive, but my major concern is how much ideology and well-intentioned extremism comes into play. Are these just terrorists acting for fun and profit, or do they actually think they're doing the right thing? The only two I think sound like they count for sure are Nina Meyers and Philip Bauer since they're the only ones sufficiently heinous and don't seem to be acting for a greater good in any way. Kevin Carroll and Gary Matheson at the least should be cut because they don't sound heinous enough.

edited 11th Apr '13 8:44:52 PM by OccasionalExister

Kade Kilgore: Bad, but not quite as bad as the agreed-upon Marvel CMs. I vote no.

Agree that Pierce has moral agency; he was always treated as such. Still a Keep.

Dracula from Blacula: Could be a Keeper, though I still have some doubts; can anybody else who saw it chime in?

CSI and Cold Case writeups: Looking good. Keep the Kleinfelds.

24 examples: Needs a bit of cleanup methinks. Aside from a bit of grammar, was Nina actually horrified (potential disqualifier) or just shocked (not a disqualifier) by Salazar's act? Also, agree that the gravedancing should be cut. Seems pretty good otherwise.

As for Nightripper, I'm focusing mainly on his mortal days; a Serial Killer who indulges in Cold-Blooded Torture with 953 victims under his belt is pretty awful, and he was pretty far from the power level of Tar-Baphon (Sorcerous Overlord so powerful that a full-fledged god had to put him down the first time around, then came back as a lich 2300 years later, terrorised half the continent for 600 years before being beaten by the combined ressources of the empire that ruled the other half of the continent and its allies) or even Ruthazek (The Chosen One of a demon lord, with armies of minions at his disposal, and who at least has some form of twisted honor/mercy towards captives/enemies who display sufficient strength), or of confirmed CMs Kazavon and Allevrah Azinrae. Mortal!Nightripper was just a nobody who joined the army so the frequent travelling around would help his murderous streak.

Also, I'd be grateful if you can tell me which books talk in more detail about the archdukes/harbingers/nascent demon lords you mention so I can scope them out.

edited 11th Apr '13 9:05:41 PM by Paireon

I'm unfamiliar with the show, but I'm wondering if Nina might be one of those misogynist entries; it calls her the worst person on the show, then immediately lists someone who "horrifies" even her. She's the only woman listed too.