Genre Savvy cleanup

F wicks are finally done. Moving on to G.

Took a crack at helping out with the Z's. Not 100% sure I'm doing perfectly so here's what I did if anyone wants to check up. Ones I changed are bolded.

• Sandbox.Zattai Rouiki - Ghost wick
• Webcomic.Zebra Girl - Actual trope entry is fine. Though there's a pothole under Lotus-Eater Machine I don't know enough to act on one way or the other.
• Film.Zebraman - Seems fine. Guy's success seems to come from the childhood superhero show he emulates.
• Creator.Zero9teen - The entry details the Let's Player's belief that going backwards in platformers is usually a good idea to find hidden things, so I think it's good.
• Series.Zero Hour - Already commented out as ZCE so hard to tell but refers to "cracks about not doing things like people do in the movies." so will likely be fine with more context.
• YMMV.Zero Time Dilemma - Took out Genre Savvy and replaced with "observant" since original line was "anyone even remotely Genre Savvy could guess that a Serial Killer mentioned would be secretly one of the characters..."
• VisualNovel.Zero Time Dilemma - Took out Genre Savvy entry since it was more about the player being savvy, not the characters, so unsure it counted.
• NightmareFuel.Zero Time Dilemma - Same as above.
• Headscratchers.Zero Time Dilemma - Removed [[GenreSavvy genre savviest]] for just savviest, as it refers to a character I hadn't seen referred to as Genre Savvy elsewhere in the prior Zero Time Dilemma pages.
• VideoGame.Zettai Hero Project - Legit. As written the genre savvy act is based on "everyone knows it happens in movies so..."
• Zettai Ryouiki - Iffy on this one. The trope name is in the description and reads "Of course, as with any symbols, Genre Savvy characters can invoke it on purpose even if they're not related nor do they consider themselves part of the associated archetype." Sounds legit, but I'm not certain it aplies.
• ComicBook.Zombies Calling - Already commented out as a ZCE, but "Joss gets this from seeing every zombie movie ever made." suggests it'll qualify with that context.

Also got They Died Because of You, because I wound up Wiki Walking through the relateds.

edited 11th Jun '17 9:03:21 AM by sgamer82

Thanks for the help!

I think we're pretty safe pursuing a "when in doubt, cut" policy, especially with potholes that lack sufficient context to judge validity. I've been putting a link to this thread in every cut I've made so that if I do wind up cutting any potentially valid examples, we can discuss it here, add context, and restore them.

I think I'm inclined to be a little more cut-happy than you are. In Zebraman, for example, it says he's a fan of "the original show." Okay. What happens in the original show that he's able to apply to his own situation, specifically? Could use more context. Likewise, in Zettai Hero Project, it says "they" evacuated the cities because "they" knew that such cities always get attacked in movies. Who's "they"? Could use more context. The rule of thumb is that if someone not familiar with the work can't tell whether it's a valid example or not, then it needs more context.

edited 11th Jun '17 10:59:11 AM by HighCrate

Since I'm not doing this regularly figured at the time best to keep it and be wrong than vice versa.

edited 11th Jun '17 11:23:19 AM by sgamer82

So as part of the Genre Savvy pruning spree this example got cut from Friendship is Dragons:

"* Very Special Episode: The players are Genre Savvy enough to recognize Zecora's introduction as the set-up for one.

• The GM was counting on it."

Now to me, that looks like the proper use of the term Genre Savvy. Even if it's not, the Veryspecial Episode trope still applies and shouldn't have been cut. I know I could just revert the edit myself, but I don't want to do that and then find myself in the middle of an edit war.

edited 11th Jun '17 2:26:46 PM by Emptybee

There's no evidence given that the players are genre savvy. "The GM was counting on it" is not enough; he could have been counting on it because what they did was completely in character for them.

Which still doesn't explain why the larger example was cut entirely.

Is that being Genre Savvy? I mean sure its something you would typically only see in media and such but where is the savviness? The only way it would be is if you wore it to turn on an otaku for a date or to manipulate him and only if they based it on the media and not knowledge of the otaku's personal fetishes.

Or for how to make an anime character for cosplay and character designs but eh.

I wouldn't actually put something like that in the description though...

It's a Zero Context Example. It doesn't explain how the episode is an example of Very Special Episode. I really should have put that in the edit reason; blame it on muscle memory.

edited 11th Jun '17 8:32:44 PM by HighCrate

Fair enough. It's been awhile since I read that arc, but I'll look it over and see if I can't provide some context.

What is the verdict on Balthier from Final Fantasy XII? The discussion seems conflicted on that regard.

I think he's probably Wrong Genre Savvy, but I'm not entirely certain either.

The main schtick with Balthier is his assertion that he is the leading man of the story. However, by most any analysis of the plot, this is untrue. Vaan is the main viewpoint character and iconic heroic party member for the game, and reading the plot it's Ashe whose quest and motivations are central to the story and move the plot. FF 12 has oft been compared to Star Wars, and in that comparison Balthier and Fran are obvious stand-ins for Han and Chewie, and at a couple points Basch and later Ashe have to bribe Balthier for his help. He does have a role to play in things and a personal interest in the unfolding story, but Balthier is not the main character. He is aware that he is in a story, but he is not the leading man.

I submit for consideration the following entry:

• Wrong Genre Savvy: Balthier self-identifies as "the leading man" upon whom the story centers around, and tells the others that Heroic Sacrifice and Plot Armor can be expected to come into play with him due to this status. Despite this, it's Ashe who in practice acts as the main character, with Vaan as the Supporting Protagonist, and Balthier's expectations concerning his role never come to pass. When Fran lampshades this reality during the ending, Balthier is offended by the idea.
  Fran: I'd say you're in more of a supporting role.
  Balthier: Fran, please.

edited 22nd Jun '17 7:39:15 PM by DrakeClawfang

Do Heroic Sacrifice or Plot Armor come into play?

No. Balthier declares he "might have to do something heroic" at some point, but never acts in a manner where he directly intends to sacrifice himself to save the party. The end of the game, where he and Fran to to the crashing Bahamut airship to repair its engines so it won't fall on the city of Rabanastre, he has the "the leader man never dies" line alluding to Plot Armor. He does survive this, but nothing else in the story occurs that would make one question Balthier's ability to survive it, and IMHO a one-time thing is not enough to qualify him as having plot armor. This incident could also qualify as his Heroic Sacrifice, except by the mention of Plot Armor, he clearly intends to survive it, or at least proclaims he will.

EDIT - I'll add the note of these two tropes to my suggested entry.

edited 22nd Jun '17 7:38:45 PM by DrakeClawfang

Cool. I think that more fully establishing that the tropes he believes apply to him do not apply makes for a stronger case for Wrong Genre Savvy. I'm cool with the revised entry.

edited 23rd Jun '17 7:07:27 PM by HighCrate

In that case I'll add it to Balthier's profile.

On Genre Savvy.Literature

• The Lynburn Legacy: Kami defies It Was Here, I Swear!, by her actions when she finds the aftermath of an animal sacrifice. Despite being freaked out, she makes sure to get a picture of it, then runs and calls the police, then publishes the picture in her paper.

On Literature.The Trojan Cycle

• Genre Savvy: Diomedes and Nestor, right after Lesser Ajax mess up Athena's Alter. They both had a discussion and agreed to leave Troy immediately. Just in time to avoid Zeus's storm and make it safely back. This make sense, since Nestor, as one of the old heroes, has literally Seenit All and knows that sticking around with the guy who piss off a god is a bad idea. Diomedes as Athena's personal favorite, got off scot-free and was a old pal of Nestor

Both are wrong I'd say.

Agreed; deleted both and sent MaLady a PM to join us here.

The first example might be, it doesn't provide enough context as evidence for or against.

The latter is explicitly not an example, as it says the character has Seen It All and knows through experience, not fiction.

Well, the character is an Intrepid Reporter in a Town with a Dark Secret or something.

I just grabbed it from the novels' Awesome page and placed it everywhere relevant... I should also add it to It Was Here, I Swear!... :sigh:

None of those facts say anything about being Genre Savvy, though. Genre Savvy is about a character seeing their current situation through the lens of someone who has seen similar situations in fiction. So if she's read books where people don't believe someone because the protagonist didn't have proof, that's Genre Savvy. If she's just "savvy" and thinks "I need proof" that isn't an example.

I deleted the following entry from WrongGenreSavvy.Fan Fic. It was restored without alteration; I'm bringing it here for consensus:

• Used to somewhat humorous extent in the NCIS/Supernatural crossover fic When Worlds Collide, which sees the NCIS team taking charge of the investigation into the Winchesters, as part of Crowley's attempt to manipulate the NCIS team into acting as his Unwitting Pawn to kill the Winchesters. This part of the plan fails as the team soon evaluate the records of the Winchesters' past 'crimes', and while they don't believe in the supernatural, they conclude that the Winchesters and other Hunters do believe in it and are thus acting to defend people from the threats the recognise even if it's only in their minds, evaluating the Winchesters' crimes from the perspective of the Winchesters tracking real-world threats while ignorant of the supernatural implications. Based on this philosophy, the NCIS team are able to recognise that the Winchesters have acted to save lives, but assume that, for example, they saved people from a bear rather than a wendigo. Long-term, the NCIS team analyse such cases as the Winchesters' encounters with shapeshifters, their encounter with Lethe, and the time the Leviathans tried to frame the Winchesters as serial killers, and conclude that Dean and Sam have spent the past eight-plus years tracking an elaborate terrorist conspiracy that has developed a means of creating perfect disguises as part of their plan to infiltrate America and destroy it from within which culminated in the destruction of Sucro Corp, which they misinterpreted as a supernatural threat because of their own ideas. Naturally, when Dean hears this theory from Tony, he laughs so hard that Tony worries Dean's going to break his ribsribs.
  • On a smaller scale, Tim Mc Gee assumes that Bobby Singer was an ignorant small-town hillbilly before he sees Bobby's surviving supernatural books and learns that the man was so skilled that a distinguished language professor at a noted university wrote to Bobby thanking him for help with a translation.

Yeesh, what a Wall of Text. Here's the problem, insofar as I can parse what this long, meandering entry is even trying to say: nobody in the story appears to be drawing genre knowledge from in-universe fiction. Not An Example.

Yeah, that's not an example. Lots of words, but nothing that actually touches on the trope. Most of it is about characters being right, which is opposed to the trope. The tacked on example isn't one either, since it just shows someone being wrong at something, with no savviness included, required, or implied.