Misused: Outside Context Villain

Outside-Context Villain is an antagonist that is so alien to the protagonists that they have no idea how to understand or fight them.

Instead it seems to be misused for just any villain that just didn't have foreshadowing, the heroes were surprised to have to fight, or villains that are simply more powerful than the protagonists. Neither are the trope.

Wick Check:

• Bleach: Misuse. Heroes are surprised by the villain.
• Berserk: Misuse. More powerful.
• Digimon Tamers: Correct
• Naruto: Misuse. No foreshadowing.
• Guardian Fairy Michel: Not enough context to tell.
• Cable & Deadpool: Misuse. Character from another series in the same universe.
• Comic Book/Lucifer: Misuse. Character is outside of the focus group, but isn't a shock the general narrative at all.
• Tamers Forever Series: Misuse. Possibility characters didn't plan for.
• Cowboys & Aliens: Correct.
• Battleship: Correct.
• Shadowleague: Not enough context.
• Relativity: Misuse. More powerful foe of the same sort they normally face.
• Alphas: Correct.
• Lost Girl: Correct.
• Shin Megami Tensei: Correct.
• Evolva: ZCE.
• Super Smash Bros.: Not enough context, but doesn't seem quite right.
• American Gothic: Misuse. No foreshadowing.
• Axe Cop: ZCE, but it's Axe Cop so it's nigh impossible for it to actually count.
• Donkey Kong: Possible misuse. Not the normal antagonist, but that doesn't mean it fits the trope.
• Adventurers!: Correct.
• Video Game/Fallout3: Misuse.
• Final Fantasy III: ZCE.
• Godforsaken Future: Not enough context.

edited 27th Jul '15 8:31:27 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

I'm counting 9/24 definitely wrong, 7/24 definitely correct, 7/24 ZCE, and 1/24 probably wrong. That looks bad, but we need more than 24 wicks.

I don't understand how the problem arose, though. Outside-Context Villain is basically the clearest title possible. I think the problem is just standard fans pimping their favorite work even if it means shoehorning the trope. Most of the misuse seems to be "we never expected anything this strong!" which of course is wrong, but you can kinda sorta see the trope if you squint.

The page quote isn't helping. There's no way it's the entire cause, but it does seem to promote the "we never expected anything this strong" interpretation.

edited 27th Jul '15 10:10:12 PM by Discar

Final Fantasy III is right, the boss is literally a cloud of darkness and is so alien that they cant really understand nor fight it very well. When they do the plot line in Final Fantasy XIV they copy her III cloud form and plot wholesale and make it so she literally can not be beaten, they can only run and close the portal to the Realm Of Darkness behind them. I do not remember if this was the case in III or not.

In Dissidia they had a hard time translating that into a character they make her a Anthropomorphic Personification of the cloud with Complete Immortality and quirks like using Royal "We" and strange motives.

edited 28th Jul '15 5:02:03 AM by Memers

What counts as in context or outside context is up for interpretation. The trope description mentions the Spaniards invading the Aztecs as an example, and I can see good arguments for why that would and would not count as this trope.

Pro: The Aztecs had never heard of the Spanish before, had no idea where they came from, and were completely unprepared for Spanish resources like horses, gunpowder, metalworking, etc.

Con: The Aztecs may not have known about Spain, specifically, but they surely realized that there were lands beyond their current map borders that they hadn't heard of before, and expansionist empires were certainly nothing new for the region. Sure, the Spanish had more advanced technology, but the Aztecs could still fight them using pretty much the same weapons and tactics they had always used.

Or let's try an example using fiction. Early in The Vampire Diaries, the characters think that vampires and witches are the only kinds of supernatural beings that exist, so when they run into werewolves, they should be an Outside-Context Villain, right? But what a show like The X-Files? Early on in that show, the main characters also have no idea that werewolves exist until they encounter one near the end of the first season. But by that point, Mulder and Scully had already established a pattern of discovering new paranormal phenomena every week, from ghosts to aliens to mutants to psychics to the Jersey Devil. Can encountering a werewolf still count as an Outside-Context Villain when the main characters are constantly encountering monsters they never knew were real before?

I propose this trope gets renamed "Outside Context Foe", to help clear up this is not just a trope that applies to villains, but any foe (protagonist or antagonist, heroic or villainous).

If I understand correctly, while the current example (Yhwach) doesn't fit, Tsukishima would. Not only does he have a previously unknown type of power, but instead of just fighting Ichigo directly he uses it to Gaslight him over a long period of time. Ichigo is used to solving problems the shonen hero way, but this time he can't fight Tsukishima by himself (because he was Brought Down to Normal at the end of the last arc), and he can't ask his friends for help because Tsukishima has altered their memories.

edited 2nd Aug '15 7:26:24 PM by Prime32

Honestly, I think what we need here is a split.

We need one trope for villains that are outside of the historical and/or genre conventions that would be expected of the work.

And one trope for just being woefully unprepared for the for that you're engaging.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

I don't think Bleach would be an example. The main character was effectively manipulated and fed mis-information - in a completely non-magical way, which is why the power was so successful and effective. Other characters were able to deal with it. The example might fit shimaspawn's proposed split (the unprepared version), however.

On that note... agree with the split. Would the 'unprepared' option become an 'opposite' to Crazy-Prepared, (being either prepared for unlikely scenarios or over-prepared for routine scenarios), as in: being unprepared for unlikely scenarios or under/not-prepared for routine scenarios?

Also, is there a potential chairs issue? In theory, since not everything can ever be prepared for or anticipated, it's more note-worthy when things are correctly (or excessively) prepared for or anticipated (most cases of lacking preparation would be 'normal' or 'default'). On the other hand, there are situations in stories where it's lampshaded in-universe that the characters are far less prepared than they should be, either because they refused to prepare, had no time, didn't think to, or some other reason.

edited 3rd Aug '15 5:04:30 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

I maintain that it's a matter of perspective.

In Real Life, there's no real point in being prepared for a Zombie Apocalypse. Those who do come up with plans for such a scenario do so either for fun or as a thought experiment to test their planning capabilities. So if zombies suddenly turn up, they're an Outside-Context Villain that we're rightfully unprepared for.

But now, assume we're characters in a story where we know that vampires, ghost, werewolves, and fairies exist. Does an invasion of zombies still count as an Outside-Context Villain? On the one hand, we know that supernatural creatures exist, so why wouldn't we be prepared for encountering such a well known monster? On the other hand, just because some supernatural creatures exist doesn't mean we should assume every supernatural creature could be real; If Jesus, Then Aliens is listed as a logical fallacy, after all.

I agree with Raven Wilder that this is a matter of perspective. The trope specifically talks about the Spaniards' arrival in Aztec Mexico as a paradigmatic example, but you could also just look at that case as one in which there was no foreshadowing, the Aztecs were surprised, and the Spaniards were more powerful. If there was no foreshadowing, the protagonists were surprised, and the antagonist is more powerful, then the foe is outside the protagonists' context.

If there are examples that really do not fit, then remove them. If there is not enough context for an example, comment it out.

I also agree with Ferot_Dreadnaught that it should probably be renamed to Outside Context Foe, since nothing in the nature of the trope requires it to be a villain.

That's not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to several works where they are multi season epics and every arc of the story they get a new type of bad guy, and sometimes those bad guys surprise them, but the show is just following the exact same formula it has for years and these new enemies are Not So Different.

That said, I think I would be for splitting this into slightly more specific tropes like Technologically Advanced Foe, Outside Of Genre Foe (for things like Cowboys And Aliens), and Unexpected Foe from this. I think the big problem is there are just too many different ideas crammed into one trope.

edited 10th Aug '15 12:30:06 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Yeah, seperating the trope sounds like a good way to go; "outside context" can mean so many different things.

It really can, and it's leading to the examples of this trope sounding really schizophrenic. I think a split would help make the trope just seem far more coherent. And it might help it get more use, since names Technologically Adanced Foe are really clear as to what they're talking about.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Not really, its all the same in media really. A technologically advanced foe is no different from unexpected aliens or anything like that. Clarke's Third Law and all.

This trope though is about things just incomprehensible. Like say in Star Trek TNG how humanity can not fully understand the Q let alone fight them in any possible way till Voyager went off the rails, or the aforementioned Final Fantasy III example.

edited 14th Aug '15 2:36:12 AM by Memers

That's not at all what it's being used for. None of the examples are for your definition.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Hello,

I got a post from shimaspawn in the YKTTW page. I was trying to create a new YKTTW called Outside Context Hero. I originally wanted to expand this trope so it can include both heroes and villains. However, I was told to just make a new YKTTW since such a simple change can take years (for some reason).

If we can merge the two and get the trope renamed, I am all for it. At the same time, I will continue to work on the YKTTW and gather examples and maybe get the page launch. When the section is expanded, we can merge the two together, if possible.

edited 1st Sep '15 9:40:34 AM by Ramona122003

Sounds good, Ramona. Did you read the rest of the conversation here?

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

I did. I was under the impression that this thread was mostly about getting rid of examples that didn't fit, not making the trope broader.

Ok. So, what does everyone want to do about this trope? Do you like the idea of splitting Technologically Advanced Foe from Outside-Genre Foe? I do think we should expand this to heroes as well as villains. I can think of a lot of times where heroes are summoned from other worlds to deal with a foe no one else can deal with.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

If you can think of a lot, then please add the examples to the YKTTW page. That way people can see why this trope needs to be expanded. I have a few, but the page is still quite small.

Does the split include an Outside-Context Problem supertrope? Because I've seen a few that I feel like would work for that. The Culture is the trope namer for a reason, and then the MCU has 0-8-4's.

I didn't realise there was a supertrope to it. I'm not sure if the supertrope needs to be split, but I think making specific subtropes and shunting examples there would really help the description stop being quite so disjointed.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Currently, there's no supertrope; Outside-Context Problem just redirects to Outside-Context Villain.

Ah, yeah, that's a problem. There are a lot of redirects to it. I'm ok to expanding it to Outside Genre Problem and Technologically Advanced Foe. If there are any other ways to split it you think it needs I'd be ok with that too.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

I did try get Outside-Context Villain change to Outside-Context Problem since it was already a redirect, but it seems to be a no go.