Ambiguous Name: Cherry Tapping

The real problem I have with this is that the namer isn't really an example of the trope... In the Street Fighter series, a cherry tap is when you K.O. an opponent while they are guarding. The actual power of the attack doesn't matter. You could kill them with a Metsu Hadouken Ultra Combo, but as long as they are guarding when the lethal blow hits, it's a cherry tap.

I think it also fails Guess The Trope.

I suggest Finish Him off with a Toothpick or The feather light punch that broke the camels back, or the similar

edited 7th Apr '12 12:13:52 PM by TropeEater

You've supported your primary objection to the current name, but we prefer not to change names that aren't broken. If you'd still like to suggest a rename, please do a wick check to see whether or not the trope is being referred to correctly, according to our definition of it, not according to the way the term was originally used in the game.

I've seen several examples off-site using exactly the same definition we do.

As the creator of this trope, I have to say that you're wrong.

I was specifically referring to Street Fighter Alpha 2 where I first heard the term, and a Win Icon of a Cherry did in fact appear when you won a round with a weak hit. A kill by chipping (i.e.: Block Damage) was "rewarded" with the icon of a piece of cheese.

With over 1500 inbounds, I think we'll need some very strong arguments to even begin to consider making any changes here. (And I'm not seeing any yet.)

I vote to close the thread.

It's been a few days, and no evidence has been shown that gives a cause for rename. On the other hand, evidence has been shown that the name works as it is.

edited 9th Apr '12 12:10:43 PM by Feather7603

I'll do a quick wick check.

Reminder, it is specifically about getting in the last hit with an absurdly weak attack. Intentionally using only a weak attack is a combination of Nerf Arm, Death of a Thousand Cuts, and possibly Self-Imposed Challenge.

Okay, 20 random pages:

• Accidental Innuendo: Used for an example of that trope under the TV Tropes folder.
• Breather Boss: Correct.
• Chunky Salsa Rule: Correct, although a case where a pothole actually would work better.
• Counter-Strike: Correct.
• Dynasty Warriors - The Wei Rulers: Correct.
• Dragon Quest III: Incorrect, should actually be Revive Kills Zombie (as doing that much damage in one pop, regardless of its source, cannot be this trope).
• Emergency Weapon: Correct.
• Forced Level-Grinding: Incorrect, should be Death of a Thousand Cuts.
• Fridge/Homestuck: Incorrect, should be Death of a Thousand Cuts.
• Game Breaker: Fighting Games: Incorrect, should be Death of a Thousand Cuts and Nerf Arm.
• Humiliation Conga: Correct, used as comparison.
• Iji: Incorrect, should be Death of a Thousand Cuts
• Macho Masochism: Incorrect, should be Humiliation Conga.
• Mercy Rewarded: Incorrect, used instead of either Self-Imposed Challenge or Death of a Thousand Cuts.
• Perfect Dark: Correct, and it even notes where it's a valid strategy in competitive play.
• Quest for Glory: Somewhat correct; describing both this trope and Death of a Thousand Cuts.
• Super Smash Bros.: Correct, although terribly intermingled with Death of a Thousand Cuts and should be seperated.
• Tropes A to M: Correct.
• Write a Shonen Series: Not only incorrect, but I don't even know what they're trying to say.
• There Is No Kill Like Overkill: Correct, presented as an opposite.

So misuse is actually prevalent with this trope. The problem is, the misuse isn't related to the name. It's related to the overlap between this trope and a few others. It doesn't help that, in many instances, the difference between this and Death of a Thousand Cuts is simply whether or not your weak attack can be combined with stronger attacks in the same combat.

Some cleanup does need to be done. As for a rename... I dunno, to be honest. Is there a name that would not be prone to the same problem that this one has? Unless someone has a suggestion for said name, I vote that we clean up descriptions and keep the names the same.

edited 9th Apr '12 8:33:31 AM by 32_Footsteps

Supporting a closing of the thread.

Good check. A cleanup/redefinition/description-tweak would probably be a good idea.

I don't think a new name will make it any better. This name is used outside This Very Wiki in the same way, so I support keeping it.

Looking at the description, though, it does say that both Nerf Arm and Death of a Thousand Cuts are ways to do this trope. Also, the reference to Humiliation Conga seems wrong to me. This is about one hit, not an entire conga line, which that trope is about.

I want to narrow this trope down to where it's about one hit. In practice, it's more like a Joke Attack used to finish the opponent off. Now, since it's a video game trope that depends on a certain behaviour, it's not as much of a real trope as a game mechanic or audience reaction. However, the behaviour is highlighted in a lot of games, which makes it a trope.

Reading the examples, there are a lot of Self-Imposed Challenge examples, in particular combination with Nerf Arm.

edited 9th Apr '12 12:11:51 PM by Feather7603

Here's the thing: According to the description, Cherry Tapping seems to be a subtrope of Death of a Thousand Cuts, in which a weak attack / poor weapon is used for style points or to humiliate the opponent. Nothing in the description says the weak attack has to be the one final hit, as you seem to think it is.

Killing a dragon with 1000 hits from your +1 Pointy Stick because you don't have anything better is Death of a Thousand Cuts. Killing Nethack's Anti-Climax Boss Vlad The Impaler with a wielded tin opener when you have the +7 Greyswandir in your backpack is Cherry Tapping.

edited 9th Apr '12 12:21:23 PM by lebrel

Here's the thing: If you think that's what I think, what you think I think is not what I think.

edited 9th Apr '12 12:32:05 PM by Feather7603

@10 If that's the case, then this trope is just a duplicate of Death of a Thousand Cuts and should be cut. If this trope is to stick around, we are going to have to tighten up the definition to be when the last hit or two is really weak.

@11: In #9, you said: "I want to narrow this trope down to where it's about one hit."

You haven't specified why you want to do that. According to the OP, the name started as a Street Fighter injoke or something (I have no idea, I don't play fighting games). But currently it's widely used for "kill something with weak attacks for silliness or bragging rights".

@12: I kinda disagree. There are times when games pretty much force you to use Death of a Thousand Cuts because you have only weak attacks. Doing it for style points or to humiliate the other guy seems like a perfectly valid subtrope.

I can give a good reason to narrow this down to the last hit. If we don't do that, then this is overlapping with plenty of other tropes. Being forced to rely on weak hits is already covered by several tropes (depending on the circumstance, Restraining Bolt or No-Gear Level apply, though a couple are covered by Damage-Sponge Boss). Choosing to exclusively use a weak weapon also is already covered by several tropes (Death of a Thousand Cuts and Self-Imposed Challenge mostly covering it). In short, if we don't narrow the definition down to what Tropers/Feather7063 is suggesting, the proper cause would be to cut Cherry Tapping and fix the wicks as appropriate.

That said, I agree with Feather's proposal because using a weak attack to finish the opponent after softening him up with huge attacks is a real trope (though probably appropriate for Trivia in most instances) used in gameplay. It just has to be defined much better than currently.

I still don't entirely agree, but let's see if anyone else shows up with an opinion.

Alright, then what instances other than "using a weak attack only for the finishing blow" would qualify for this trope but not anything else?

"Alright, then what instances other than "using a weak attack only for the finishing blow" would qualify for this trope but not anything else?"

It is not required that tropes be entirely non-overlapping; there is this thing called a Subtrope in which all examples will also fit the Supertrope. As I said above, I think the way Cherry Tapping is currently used is a valid subtrope of Death of a Thousand Cuts, and now that you mention it, it would also be a subtrope of Self-Imposed Challenge. The phrase is frequently used in this sense in the Real World.

The problem is that this isn't a subtrope/supertrope situation. This reminds me of several other instances where a few vaguely related examples were all shoved into the same page without any rhyme or reason.

Cherry Tapping can't be a subtrope of Death of a Thousand Cuts - it's quite possible to pull this trope off in the second hit in a fight (first hit - HP to One, second hit - Cherry Tapping). It isn't always attached to a Self-Imposed Challenge (it can be a valid tactic to preserve resources in games where something is limiting your number of attacks of a given type, such as ammo). At the moment, it's an awkward mishmash of instances of its own trope and the aforementioned tropes. The only uniting thread is that the last hit is the weak one. There are too many redundancies (and people not properly citing already established tropes) if we don't refine this.

Those problems are based on the assumption that "finishing move is weak" is the only correct definition of Cherry Tapping.

If you Google "cherry tapping", there are many more uses of "repeatedly hit it with a weak attack" than of "finish it with a weak attack" (and a lot of junk, of course).

Anyway, as I said, more people need to chime in on this. I don't think the two of us arguing will settle much.

edited 9th Apr '12 2:57:19 PM by lebrel

Cherry Tapping is more like: "Weak move finishes Opponent". Whether or not it is done intentionally is not, in my opinion, relevant enough to count as a separate trope.

Cherry Tapping is when you kill a tank with a bullet.

Death of a Thousand Cuts is when you kill a tank with a Gatling Gun.

The bullets in both examples may in fact be the same size, but it's number and placement that are the difference. The final bullet of the gatling may technically count as a Cherry Tap, but the Thousand Cuts supersedes it. But if you shot a tank with a Gatling Gun for several seconds then pulled out a pistol and shot it one more time, causing it to fall apart, you have done both.

edited 9th Apr '12 3:22:38 PM by SAMAS

Well, thinking it over, the problem I had with including the use of a joke weapon the entire fight was that that meant you can include any game that even has joke weapons. Then I realised that could apply anyway. There are very few games where it's not possible to Cherry Tap. I don't think, "This is a game where you can Cherry Tap," is a trope, regardless of the meaning of Cherry Tapping. This is what the trope currently is. A lot of examples are written exactly as Death of a Thousand Cuts or, "This game has joke weapons," which makes the distinction meaningless.

On the other hand, it is possible to see this as a supertrope of those tropes...

I wonder how much would be left with only examples that have explicit mentions about it?

Actually, most RPGs do allow you to either use an incredibly weak move (like the weakest fire spell when you have a few dozen more powerful spells) or simply switch equipment to something weak for the last hit. Whether or not it's frequently done is a different story entirely, but any game that doesn't dispose of weaker moves and that has equipment switching potentially allows for this.

Scratch Damage may be what you're thinking of.

edited 10th Apr '12 7:47:29 AM by troacctid

I'd also like to point out that if you know a weak attack can finish the opponent off, it's often actually preferable, since they're usually easier to hit with, just because that's balanced against the weakness. In fighting games, the weak attacks are usually very fast, if short in range. Or in RPGs, where you just pick a cheaper attack (mana, stamina, etc.) since that's all it takes. Essentially, abusing Critical Existence Failure.

edited 10th Apr '12 10:04:01 AM by Feather7603

Hmm...

Death of a Thousand Cuts is repeatedly misused on its own page for "lots of attacks regardless of strength" (i.e. More Dakka) and for "weak units killing stronger units on a lucky roll" (Critical Hit, I suppose) and for "attacks named Thousand Cuts even if they are unrelated to this trope".

Cherry Tapping is repeatedly misused on its own page for any humiliating move, regardless of how much damage it actually does or whether it kills someone (that includes Joke Item, Nerf Arm, Joke Characters, and hard-to-pull-off moves in general), as well as for any weak weapon (which would be Thousand Cuts instead).

So yeah, there is a problem. My first thought is that Cherry Tapping is redundant: all the examples there could be moved to other pages instead. Then this could become a Fan Speak page for "killing someone with a joke move/item/character" without requiring further examples.