Whaaaaaaat? Stranger Things retroactively making a character shown as mostly bad suddenly later being revealed as being totally not that bad and trying to make the audience sympathize with them? That's totally unprecedented and not something they've done nearly half a dozen times.
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Sadly your right, I'd figure Vecna would be a different case due to how great he was as a completely evil villain.
But this doesn’t make any sense. I thought Vecna shaped the Mind Flayer into what we see. It’s his avatar isn’t it? Eleven even says it was always him. How does this make any sense?
Apparently the creators did a retcon for the play, changing his backstory. Thats why he was recently removed as a Complete Monster.
Shouldn’t we add or change on complete monster to Vecna? He created/is the Mind Flayer. Meaning all the horrible things trace back to him. And as we see he has absolutely no redeeming qualities. Even his kindness and possible care to Eleven is destroyed when he tries to kill her when she refuses to join him and later as Vecna he wants to make her suffer as much as possible. He’s extremely sadistic and malevolent as he psychologically tortured his victims before killing them in brutal ways. And he also murdered his mother and sister and framed his father for it causing his father to become a broken shell living in eternal agony. I’d say he meets all the criteria for complete monster.
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Take it to the Complete Monster thread in the forums. According to the rules, every new CM entry or any alterations must be approved by this thread.
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Thread is here
. Happy posting! But make sure to read the rules at the top of the thread before posting.
Update: Not anymore
The Mind Flayer controlled him and is the being that caused him to turn into a Misanthrope Supreme
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This is worth bringing up but not sure what trope to put it under.
- A weird, highly specific minor point of controversy in the fourth season was the age gap between Chrissy and Eddie, which per Word of God and the characters' own dialogue indicated Chrissy was 17/18 and Eddie was 19/20. In the third episode of the season, a blink-and-you'll-miss-it shot of Chrissy's information in the counsellors office indicates her date-of-birth and year of enrolment provide contrasting information, indicating she was only 15 (and thus a freshmen) but also stated she enrolled four years prior (and thus should have been a senior). Despite this being just a prop that had evidently not been fact-checked or proof-read, some latched onto this information to indicate Chrissy was a freshmen and thus made the Ship Tease with Eddie Squick due to him being possibly an adult and her barely a teenager. Adding further to this, the last episode showed a missing poster for Eddie which indicated he was 17; despite this being further evidence that Stranger Things didn't proof-check their props, it caused further discourse as this now indicates Eddie was also a senior at oldest, despite his dialogue indicating he'd been held back two years.
I thought maybe Common Knowledge, because its based on viewers recalling information that was incorrect (IE, "Chrissy was a freshmen"), but that usually infers it's people who don't follow the work closely largely believe something false whereas here its people following the work too closely and getting false information because the work's creators didn't proof-read.
Edited by awesomestguy1 Hide / Show Replies
This reads like Vague Age for both of them, but it really needs to be trimmed down.
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I'm somewhat surprised that the deputies were The Scrappy but Ted Wheeler is only a Base-Breaking Character.
Scrolling through the fandom I can't see any pro-Ted sentiment. There's one meme account that jokes about him being their 'guy' but it's got the same energy as the recent Morbius memes. On top of that, the BBC entry on him only has 'some people think he's funny', before several lines summing up how much he sucks.
I'm going to move him to The Scrappy, but figured I'd bring up my reasoning here.
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The Scrappy is for a character that is hated by viewers for one reason or another. AFAIK, Ted Wheeler isn't hated; he's merely touted as "Nancy and Mike's useless, oblivious dad" and has many low-key funny moments. The deputies, on the other hand, have several moments where they act like obstructive idiots, making Hopper act in a Surrounded by Idiots manner. Not sure if they're that hated, though.
Have you thought about maybe moving the deputies under BBC?
NVM, I see that you've already added it.
Edited by RoundRobin - Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!
Late response I know, sorry, but in response to the crossed out text, I definitely see a lot of explicit hate towards him with too few positive sentiment outside of this site; there's definitely enough negativity to qualify beyond simply Base-Breaking Character status.
I also don't know if there's enough positive sentiment towards the deputies to qualify as BBC; TBH I wasn't saying I liked the deputies or believed their scrappy status was unjustified, I just didn't think they were really less popular than Ted.
Though, to digress a bit on this topic a little but still on the topic of BBC, in six months I think it'll be safe to add Jason Carver to BBC; the character is getting a lot of Draco in Leather Pants treatment but is a Hate Sink to everyone else, so there's a very clear split base there.
^ True about Ted Wheeler. His quips and general obliviousness were funnier in seasons 1-2, but in season 4 they're just mean-spirited and completely out of place (although that last quip in 4x09 was funny).
As far as the deputies go, I think most of the hate against them comes from their behavior in Season 1. They're trying to keep order in Hawkins in season 4, so that makes up for a lot of their past behavior.
And Jason... Yeah, being both a DILP and a Hate Sink qualifies him for BBC. That should be added in January 2023, right?
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IMHO, Dr. Brenner crossed the Moral Event Horizon when he kidnapped Jane/El at birth and covered it up by faking a miscarriage, not when he subjected her to experiments in the lab.
Anyone else agree?
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If we're being fair, he crossed it when he started the project in the first place, or at least this part of it. Eleven wasn't the first child, after all.
Not sure this belongs here. But Stranget things took place in the 1980s. When this was the era of 2nd edition AD&D. Im not familiar enough with eith 2nd edition or 5e to know for sure but i have to wonder if the writers used 5E rules to connect with a modern audience?
This Narm entry is being edit warred over. Can we please trash it out on the discussion page rather than by edit warring? Thanks.
- The entire ball scene in season 2's last episode. If the way Eleven steps into the room with a dress while the music swells up and Mike stares at her isn't enough to make you shake your head in disbelief, then the cringe-inducing sexist line from Nancy to Dustin about how girls his age are "idiots" who will like him when they're older and smarter probably will.
It's Narm because it tries to play cheesy clichés (usually unfeminine girl wears a dress and blows her love interest away with it / nerdy boy gets rejected by mean, shallow girl because she just can't see how much of a Nice Guy(TM) he is) as utterly straight. I don't see how "girls your age are idiots for not liking you, hopefully they'll get smarter" isn't stupidly sexist either.
You have watched the rest of the show, right? The entire thing is built on tropes, precisely because it's drawing on nostalgia for the films of the 80s. The basic plot itself is an homage to 80s Stephen King. The Snow Ball is a nod to the 80s teen romance flicks like Pretty in Pink, and that means those tropes are going to come into play.
However it doesn't help at all that there's a complete lack of neutrality in the way the entry is written. It's pretty much begging to cause an argument.
Agreed.
I would like to add that I still don't see Nancy's comment as sexist. She sees Dustin, clearly heartbroken over his rejections, and she comes and cheers him up in the best way she knows how. I really don't think Nancy was trying to say that "every single girl that age is stupid". This is the same show that has two middle school-aged girls as part of the main cast (Eleven and Max), and both of them are portrayed as intelligent and sympathetic characters. Rather, Nancy was reassuring Dustin that those girls at the ball were stupid for rejecting him. Which, after the cold and mean way that they dumped him, I don't think it was unfair of Nancy to call those girls out on it.
Even if you do take Nancy's comment as sexist, Narm is not the place to complain about characters making racist, sexist, offensive, etc. comments. Otherwise it just comes off as, well, complaining.
It's not Narm because it's sexist, it's Narm because it plays an outdated, sexist cliché utterly straight without any self-awareness whatsoever. The whole thing where a nerdy boy gets rejected by some Mean Girl and she's portrayed as awful because she doesn't like him back (even though he's such a nice guy!) used to be so common it's ridiculous. Just because you're based on media out of that time doesn't mean you have to play every single trope straight. The show being a deliberate play on 80s horror/mystery plots doesn't make it not ridiculous. The same goes for the cheesy scene with Eleven in a dress.
Also, the comment is sexist. You can try to make "Girls this age are dumb, give them a few years and they'll wise up and like you!" (which is pretty much the exact line) seem valid in context all you want, it doesn't change the sexism of the statement. The show doesn't exist in a vacuum. The writers chose to use sexism as a way to make Dustin feel better. They could have made Nancy say something else. Not to mention that Eleven and Max are both played as being Not Like Other Girls, which is ehhhh.
Well I think the context of the scene is important. Otherwise, you have something that a character said that's being taken out of context. I'm not saying it was the best choice of words on Nancy's part, but I feel the distinction of why she said it is worth noting, and I still don't feel that Nancy was trying to make a statement about every single girl out there. Nancy otherwise doesn't do or say anything sexist (at least to me) throughout the rest of the show. And it wasn't just that the girls dumped Dustin, it was that they did it in an icy manner which clearly left him very hurt.
As for the rest of the ball scene, it's cliche, sure, but I don't see how it's sexist just because it uses common tropes, even if those tropes are overused. Meanwhile, it's true that Max and Eleven aren't like other girls, but you also have more 'normal' characters like Barb, and Nancy herself.
At this point this is starting to sound like lara16 just has an agenda they're trying to push.
Yeah, my agenda of thinking dumb tropes from the 80s are ridiculous.
You're still treating Nancy like she's a real person and not a fictional character who was written to spout a sexist line to make a male character feel better about himself, when she could have been written to say something that wasn't "girls are dumb". Narm isn't negated by something trying to justify itself in-universe. Of course the Mean Girl character was pointlessly dickish about it. She was written that way deliberately to compliment Nancy's line about girls. A lot of old media tries to justify its treatment of female characters by writing them to be unsympathetic. Sexism isn't okay just because a girl is being mean.
But the point of the entry is not to say: "Sexism is bad." (which is obvious). It's "I can't believe this show insists on playing every bad cliché from an 80s movie completely straight without any self-awareness." The show being a tribute to those movies doesn't automatically negate that.
The opening paragraph for Narm:
Narm is a moment that is supposed to be serious, but due to either over-sappiness, poor execution, excessive Melodrama, or the sheer absurdity of the situation, the drama is lost to the point of surpassing "cheesy" and becoming unintentionally funny.
You're saying the scene is BAD because it's playing tropes straight. At best it's Square Peg Round Trope. But frankly it's not even that. You're trying to add the trope because you just plain don't like the scene, and that's not Narm.
@lara16: I understand what you're saying. However, that makes it sound like the entire build-up and payoff to that scene is based around Nancy's comment alone, which isn't the case (again, by my interpretation at least). Rather, it's that Dustin is sad because, up to that point, he's the only member of The Party who didn't have anyone to dance with, until he unexpectedly finds Nancy willing to dance with him. I'm not seeing a direct correlation between that and male empowerment, as Dustin isn't the only character to face rejection. Max is quite harshly rejected by Mike on multiple occasions, and then later Eleven shrugs Max off as well (albeit not in a romantic way).
The mean girls at the ball are a rather shallow archetype, true, but there's other examples in the show. In fact, Stranger Things has more examples of male characters being cruel jerks (such as Lonnie, Troy, James, Tommy, Dr. Brenner, Billy, and Neil), though there are a couple other female examples as well (such as Connie and Carol). Either way, Nancy insulting the girls at the ball isn't the embodiment of how the show treats its female characters, as those girls are quite minor in the grand scheme of things.
I could see adding the Snow Ball under Cliché Storm, but that's about it.
I think that entire Narm entry needs cleanup. There's a lot of misuse going on in there, with people adding things just because they thought it was "bad" didn't like it, or because they felt the drama fell flat. To reiterate, Narm requires things to be unintentionally funny. IE, the accidental That Poor Cat in "Holly Jolly" might make someone laugh, but Eleven turning up alive and well in Season 2's premier after her apparent death is simply Mood Whiplash.
@Stardust Soldier, you're A: moving the goalposts and B: appealing to different problems within the show. The problem isn't a girl being mean to Dustin, the problem is Nancy going "well, girls this age are stupid" instead of saying something else to him afterwards. When Mike was being a jerk to Max, no one went up to her and said "well, boys this age are stupid". Again, the series tries to justify the usage of a sexist line in-universe when they could have just not written the line. I don't see why that is so hard to grasp.
Anyway, the two ball scenes falls under Narm, because those scenes (Mike and Eleven, Dustin and Nancy) are supposed to be heartwarming or touching scenes, but are made laughable by their cheesiness/insistence on playing clichés utterly straight. I don't see how that doesn't fit the criteria of the trope. Yes, I'm saying the moment is bad general, but I'm also saying its badness makes it comical as well.
@Ambaryerno: I agree, the Narm entry could probably use some cleanup. At some point I may take the other entries to the "Is this an example?" thread.
@lara16: I'm not trying to move any such goal posts, nor am I trying to appeal to different problems. All I'm saying is that I don't see how the moment at the ball amounts to such a strong undercurrent of sexism on the show. If characters in the show were repeatedly making such statements about the intelligence of girls (or boys), and/or if there were repeated examples of female characters being portrayed as idiotic, then I could see the problem. But I'm not seeing that. I'm simply seeing a one-off moment where Dustin gets rejected, Nancy comes along and comforts him, and calls out the girls on their behaviour. Yes, they could have written a different line, but I'm not seeing how the line that they did write is such a big deal.
Narm is definitely subjective, but you're still making a strong push for the undercurrent of sexism in that scene, and that's not what Narm is about. The way the entry is written talks about how it's sexist and offensive, not about how it's funny. Aside from that, as Ambaryerno pointed out, the entry lacks neutrality, and comes off as needlessly hostile. "Complaining About Shows You Don't Like" is against T Vtropes policy.
If I saw it as such a big deal, I'd have put it under Unfortunate Implications citing one of the numerous articles criticizing both that scene and multiple other instances of sexism within the show. (which aren't relevant at all, hence why I didn't bring them up when you basically asked me to. feel free to ask me over a private message if you're really interested in that.)
I put it under Narm because I thought, combined with the other moment I mentioned, it made the ball scene into a Cliché Storm that I found ridiculous. You're the one who started an entire debate just because I called the line: "Girls your age are stupid" sexist. (which still baffles me, considering the sexism of the statement isn't even subtle. like, it's right there) You can say it's not a big deal, but that doesn't make it not sexist. I didn't make a "strong push" for my right to call the scene sexist either, I was simply engaging a debate you started to begin with.
Either way, you've basically been ignoring the point I was making from the start and keeping this entry on the page isn't important enough for me to engage in a fruitless debate any further. Feel free to keep the entry deleted, I suppose.
- Unintentionally Sympathetic: Troy is no doubt an irredeemable Jerkass. However, if he wasn't a villain, try to imagine just how terrifying being frozen in place and forced to piss himself could be.
The entry itself says that Troy is an irredeemable Jerk. Not to mention that Eleven made him piss himself because he was about to beat Will. With the attempted murder later, I can't see how he's remotely unintentionally sympathetic.
Edited by Silverblade2 Hide / Show Replies
Hey there. =)
I didn't notice this until just now. But, yeah, I removed it myself quite a while ago (under my older handler) because I too disagreed with the 'sympathetic' part.
Draco in Leather Pants is the first of the possible reasons listed in Unintentionally Sympathetic.
True. I just feel that, in Troy's case, he went so far with his viciousness that it eclipsed any sympathy he might have had, even if it were unintentional. Even if he was still a jerk, the peeing himself thing could've made you feel sorry for him if his nastiness was toned down a bit. But this is the same guy who was completely disrespectful at Will's funeral and openly mocked Mike about it, threatened to cut out Dustin's teeth, and tried to murder Mike. That goes beyond simple bullying; that's a special kind of messed-up.
Billy is another awful person, but even him I found to be more sympathetic than Troy.
I can't believe Vecna was removed as a Complete Monster because of a stage play retcon of his backstory. Such complete BS, the last season of Stranger Things better not screw this up.
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