I'm the one who posted it, and I think it is entirely fitting.
First, the trope does not specify blood siblings. It expressly includes "siblings who aren't really — they're fostered, or step-sibs, or adopted." Barry clearly counts as fostered, even if Joe never formally adopted him. As a legal point, there's no way that Social Services or Child Protective Services would not have insisted that Joe have some sort of legal guardianship over Barry.
Barry may say his feelings for Iris predate his being taken in by Joe, but, honestly, he was a small child at the time. His statements about what he felt at the time should not be taken entirely at face value. But even if we do take those statements completely at face value, it would not change the fact that they were raised by the same man in the same house through most of their formative years.
There is no way Barry was a teen when Joe "adopted" (to use ablackraptor's word). In "The Man in the Yellow Suit," Barry is shown as still being scared of the dark on the night his mother was murdered; his mother had to reassure him that he did not need to be scared of the dark before he would agree to let her turn his nightlight off. For that matter, his mother was still tucking him in at night. He was clearly a very young child at the time he was taken in by Joe.
It is true that the show has never had Iris say that Barry is like her brother, although it is clear that she has never considered him as a romantic partner. But it is just as clear that Joe has been a father to Barry. Barry actually says that Joe has been "the definition of a dad" to him. If Iris' father has been "a dad" to Barry, what does that make Barry and Iris?
Also, what does it prove that Eddie was originally jealous? How does that prove that there is no incestuous character to Barry's feelings for Iris?
Long story short: Barry and Iris were raised from early childhood in the same house by the same man. That makes them siblings in all but blood.
Well, firstly, to quote the tropes Laconic entry, the trope is defined as "Romance between siblings or half-siblings." The page doesn't 'expressly include' "siblings who aren't really — they're fostered, or step-sibs, or adopted." It brings it up, but doesn't actually specify if these count; rather, it talks about how they're often used to play with this dynamic while averting actually playing it proper. The actual, full paragraph that line is taken from is here:
- Frequently actual incest is avoided through the device of siblings who aren't really — they're fostered, or step-sibs, or adopted. Thus, while in arbitrary terms of relationship they may be brother or sister, in "true" terms of blood they are not, and may pursue their chosen target with relative impunity. Often it's just an extreme version of the Childhood Friend Romance setup; male and female characters who normally couldn't cohabitate or possibly even interact normally with each other are 'forced' to but meet with an arbitrary contrivance preventing them from developing past it. The only difference is that the audience is more likely to accept the latter contrivance as believable.
While I think the paragraph (and the full page, for that matter) needs to be clarified, my interpretation of this is that this is describing a subverted form of the trope (and as such, if it DOES count, it should be noted that it only counts as a subversion), or even an aversion or an example of what isn't this trope (as is common on some trope pages). In either case, its very far from 'expressly including' that and comes off as Quote Mining.
Secondly, yeah, having feelings before he was adopted does change things, because it means his feelings came first; it greatly changes the way their relationship works because it means he's not 'someone who fell for his (not)sister', it makes him 'guy who ended up sorta-but-not-quite adopted by the family of the girl he liked'. There's a huge difference in the way those relationships worked. And, even if he didn't 'love' her before that, he still had a pre-existing relationship before that which would make his relationship with Iris different from foster siblings, as it would make them count as childhood friends first.
Thirdly, having just rewatched the first episode to get clarification, Barry was 11 years old when his mother was killed; given there was probably some time before he began living in the West household full time, Barry and Iris would have been between 11 and 12 (assuming they're the same age and not a year or so apart). Either case, that makes them tweens. Given that, psychologically speaking, that would be too old for them to develop the same kind of attachment you would normally develop for siblings, I would think it would further make this classification ill-fitting.
Fourthly, Barry's relationship with Joe doesn't effect his relationship with Iris or its classification, especially since, again, their relationship pre-dates Barry being taken in by Joe. While Joe has been the 'definition of a dad' to him, its made explicitly clear that Barry considers Henry to be his father. Joe has been 'like a dad' to him, but at the same time, for many people who's father's aren't present for whatever reason, its common for them to consider their significant other's father to be 'like a dad' to them as well; that doesn't make all those relationships incestuous, nor does it make it such here.
Eddie's views on the relationship showcases how people in-universe see them. As such, in-universe, they're considered socially acceptable to have romantic feelings for one-another regardless of the situation they're in. Given that the main page is for in-universe tropes, or tropes that reflect the material indisputably, it would require every trope to be agreeable on by any viewer, regardless of any other conflicting opinions. Given that, and the fact Brother–Sister Incest is a 'main page' trope, I would say that putting it in the main page is wrong as it doesn't reflect the in-universe depiction of the characters. The idea that they're incestuous is a fan-derived interpretation of their relationship as its not what they're considered in universe; as such, if we're going to make note of this implication, it should be on the YMMV page, not the main page.
In short: There's too many differenced between Barry and Iris' relationship and that of siblings to consider any romantic act or emotion between them to be incestuous, and so the trope does not fit.
It's not quote-mining. The clear meaning of the paragraph is that the trope is sometimes used while avoiding "actual incest." Otherwise, why bring it up at all?
It is not a subversion. A subversion is when "[a] work makes you think a trope is going to happen, but it doesn't." Applied to Brother–Sister Incest, that would mean that the work leads you to believe that an incestuous attraction is going to develop between siblings, or that an actual incestuous union will happen between siblings, but then it doesn't. Alternately, a subversion would also be when the work leads the audience to believe that two characters in a romantic relationship are going to be revealed to be siblings, but then it turns out that they are not. That does not apply here at all. The relationship between Barry and Iris is a known quantity: they are foster-siblings, since Barry was raised alongside Iris by Iris' father. Barry's feelings for Iris are a known quantity: he desires her romantically. There's no subversion. It might be a subversion insofar as the show might be leading the audience to believe that the incestuous attraction will be consummated, only to surprise us when it is not, but only in that sense.
Likewise, it is not an aversion. An aversion is when "the trope just isn't there" at all. The trope is here. Barry and Iris were raised in the same house by the same person. They are foster siblings. Barry is romantically interested in Iris. The trope is not being averted. An aversion of the trope would be if neither of them ever developed any romantic feelings for the other, or if they had not been raised together in the first place.
Having the feelings beforehand might change things, but there is no way Barry realistically had romantic feelings at an age when his mother was still tucking him into bed at night and telling him that he did not need to be scared of the dark. Children at that emotional level do not develop romantic or sexual attraction. Furthermore, if the show did in fact say he was eleven years old at the time, then the show writers either have no idea about how eleven-year-olds behave, or they were deliberately portraying Barry as seriously emotionally underdeveloped and immature. No emotionally mature eleven-year-old should need his mother to tuck him in at night and tell him not to be scared of the dark. So his chronological age does not matter. His emotional maturity was that of a much younger child.
Of course Barry's relationship to Joe affects his relationship to Iris. I'm floored that you would say otherwise with a straight face. Joe is Iris' father. Joe raised Barry alongside Iris. Joe was not just a vaguely paternal mentor to Barry; Joe was Barry's adoptive dad.
The fact that Eddie thought there might have been a possible or potential romantic relationship between Barry and Iris says nothing about whether Eddie or anyone else would see the relationship as appropriate. Moreover, even if it were seen as appropriate in-story, that has nothing to do with whether it is this trope. Main-page tropes are ones that are objectively in the story. Moreover, it is certainly possible to write a story in which actual blood-sibling incestuous unions are considered socially acceptable in-story; such stories would still qualify for this trope.
The only difference between Barry and Iris' relationship and those of other siblings is that, one, Barry is Iris' adopted sibling, and, two, Barry has romantic feelings for his adopted sibling. The former does not disqualify it from being this trope, and the latter is the essence of this trope.
Finally, look, at this point we are just repeating the same points we made in our private correspondence. The whole reason you wanted to take this discussion to here was to get others' opinions. To that end, why don't we agree not to post further for, say, 48 hours, to give others a chance to chime in? Otherwise, we may as well go back to discussing it in private?
Edited by 71.191.222.131
Except, the paragraph very clearly goes on to specify that those examples aren't 'real' incest and are instead extreme cases of Childhood Friend Romance. Like I noted, the page in general could do with some clean up on if not blood siblings 'count' as it isn't clear what is meant by that paragraph; personally it comes off as saying that those cases aren't incest, but its not made clear if it means they don't count, which is why I'm going off of the page's laconic entry, which is "Romance between siblings or half-siblings." Given it singles out half-siblings as an alternative but doesn't mention not-blood siblings in any way, I would take that as not included here.
Obviously, subversion and aversion are not adequate ways to label it, but neither is listing it as just played straight. The way the two are depicted is far too different than how the trope is used in the other examples it lists to be a 'straight' example, so I would argue it wouldn't count as such.
You assume that being afraid of the dark is something no one does unless they're mentally and emotionally child like, which is incredibly untrue. Its perfectly possible, and perfectly reasonable, for someone to be scared of the dark (or as noted in the case of the flashback, be scared of being alone in the dark) regardless of their age, even if its more common among young children. An 11 year old being scared of the dark isn't that baffling. As for being tucked in, he'd also just gotten beaten up that day; given the fact that there's no indication this is something Nora did every night, and the fact that checking in on your child after a bad day before you go to sleep is a common thing parents do, especially as Barry is an only child, Nora tucking him in isn't that baffling. Even still, no one said his pre-existing feelings had to be any big serious love, just that from long before they took him in, Barry knew Iris as a potential romantic love interest, not as a friend or sister. That would reasonably stop the chance of him developing the ability to see her as a sibling and avoid it being close to incestuous to develop feelings for her.
Well, technically I'm not 'saying' it, I'm typing it, but even still, I really don't agree with this assumption that Joe really factors into this. For starters, we really should clear this up: Joe did not adopt Barry. Barry is not legally his son. By assumption, he is his foster father, which is a very different role in his life. Joe would have still done 'father' things like Barry noted, and they have a close father-like relationship, Barry still clearly sees Henry as his father, even if he considers Joe just as important in his life. As such, Barry and Iris both have a very different relationship with Joe. Factor in the fact that, again, they had a pre-existing relationship that nulled the possibility of them developing a sibling-like relationship, it means that treating them as if they're siblings grossly inaccurate.
I think Eddie's reaction says a lot about if it fits, actually, in terms of how this 'counts'. Eddie acted like Barry was just a close friend he suspected might have had feelings for her, not like he was a brother figure to her. Had he seen it as something that was incestuous, and as such massively inappropriate (given the show is 'like reality unless noted', I figure incest would be seen as such in-universe too), I imagine his reaction wouldn't have been jealousy, it would have been disgust. Given that, as well as everyone else in-universe not being disgusted by it (the closest to that being Caitlin, who's more annoyed that Barry is getting in-between Iris and Eddie), it makes it clear that as far as the people in-universe are concerned, Barry and Iris are not siblings. One thing that needs to be pointed out about that trope is that all the other examples are of cases that are treated as incest in-universe. Given the fact that nothing similar to Barry and Iris' setup is noted despite it not being completely unique (Having searched through every other example, only one other case of foster siblings is noted (specifically Da Capo), and even there, the fact that they're Not Blood Siblings is treated as a subversion), I would say that, by that logic, this shouldn't fit as an example of that trope.
I would be happy to wait for other people's thoughts on this (though, that suggestion would have been appreciated before the list of points, so I'd have noticed it before making my counters). I'll give it until Friday to see what the census from others are.
Considering Not Blood Siblings (really the much more accurate trope here) considers itself a subtrope of Brother–Sister Incest, I'd say Brother–Sister Incest doesn't necessarily require blood relation.
I do, however, think the example as written is poorly done.
Edited by 156.33.241.6 Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
The example as written is inaccurate. There's no canon stating that Barry was adopted by Joe West. (In all likelihood, Joe attained legal guardianship of Barry so that he wouldn't be put into foster care.) Joe doesn't "find out" that Barry is in love with Iris. He explicitly reveals that he has been "watching [Barry] be in love with Iris since before [Barry was] old enough to know what love is" and has actively been waiting for Barry to reveal his feelings to Iris and encourages Barry that "the universe" will find a way to put them together. Barry even repeats that same sentiment about how long he's been in love with Iris when he confesses his feelings to her, which happens, of course, after his own father has revealed that he too has known for a long time that Barry is in love with Iris and encourages him to pursue her. Regardless of whether one considers it poor writing, much like Barry and Iris being 11 at the time of Nora Allen's murder, it's clear that the narrative itself does not consider Barry and Iris to be siblings or any equivalent thereof.
It definitely seems like the example should be Not Blood Siblings: everyone is okay with the relationship because they aren't really related, even if they have spent half of their lives under the same roof.
Edited by 63.88.13.250 Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Also, folks, writing long wall of texts does not make for easily understood arguments, and thusly not for convincing ones.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Honestly, I'd be perfectly OK with going with Not Blood Siblings, with a rewrite on the entry, and possibly some note in the YMMV entry about some fans finding the depiction of their relationship to be squicky; still keeps the note, but clarifies that they're not actually committing incest by any means.
Edited by 90.210.155.69
I'm curious why Larkmarn thinks the example is poorly done. But as Larkmarn pointed out, Not Blood Siblings is a subtrope of Brother–Sister Incest.
Shewap, I don't see why it really matters whether Joe legally adopted Barry; no is arguing that the relationship is illegal. It doesn't change the psychological aspects of the relationship.
Crazysamaritan, whether the other characters are okay with the relationship is not really an issue, as that does not come up in the trope description. The trope's existence in the work is objective. It is sexual attraction (one-sided so far) between characters who, granted, in this case are not blood siblings, but nevertheless have a sibling relationship.
In any case, I would have no objection to adding a separate entry for Not Blood Siblings or adding a subheading under the existing Brother–Sister Incest entry pointing out that they are Not Blood Siblings, although I think that is covered by the entry as written. But I don't think the issue is that some fans find the pairing squicky as much as it is that some fans are squicked by having the nature of the relationship pointed out.
Brother–Sister Incest and its subtropes have no bearing on the Barry/Iris relationship. They're not related, they didn't grow up thinking they're related, and they are never treated as though they're related. Those tropes should only be noted as part of an example on the one-sided Like Brother and Sister way Iris sees Barry.
"It doesn't change the psychological aspects of the relationship."
I think it does; as noted by just about everyone, Barry has never seen Iris in a sisterly way (as by the show's canon, Barry knew Iris before the West family took him in, and thought of her as a potential romantic interest; as I also noted, Barry at this point is too old for the Westermack effect to kick in, meaning he is psychologically unlikely to see her as a sister in the first place), nor has Joe or even Iris (again, even when denying the possibility of him being attracted to her, she never once even says anything implying she's squicked by the idea or considers him her brother).
Barry and Iris, in the canon of the show, are childhood friends who grew up in the same household; while you can argue there's some similarities to siblings, it would be no more than the similarities to two people who grew up together in an orphanage, boarding school, or other similar arrangements (especially since, as I noted, Barry had regular contact with his father; even if he wasn't able to be 'there' for him, he's still the person Barry considers his father).
So, regardless of how you perceive the implication of their set up, their actions, behaviour, and apparent mentality as shown on the show is that they are not siblings. If we're going to try analysing the 'psychology' of their relationship, incest is definitely not one of the implications one would logically get, not unless you ignore the way.
While I can concede with Not Blood Siblings being noted, Brother–Sister Incest just doesn't fit at all. It ignores the canon interpretation of their relationship, ignores the legal definition of incest, and ignores the laconic description of the trope, and the only basis at this point is a single line in the trope page's description (which, as I argued, is not actually saying that this is the same thing).
At this point, I think its safe to say that it shouldn't be listed, and should be removed.
As a final note, I apologize for the repeated large posts; I just think there's a lot of reasons why this trope doesn't fit and I'm kind-of a motormouth online and off.
If the relationship qualifies for Not Blood Siblings, then the supertrope is not mentioned. You don't list supertropes when you have acceptable subtropes already listed.
Also, your proposed solution (adding a subheading under the existing) violates our rules on Example Indentation in Trope Lists.
Edited by 96.26.36.134 Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Actually Joe DID legally adopt Barry. It is mentioned twice in the first two season that Joe is his ADOPTED or ADOPTIVE father, not his foster father.
In S1 E15 and S2 Ep 21 they both mention Joe has legally become his father. This is not fostering. He officially adopted him. Maybe not initially, but he DID adopt Barry.
Also, Joe calls Barry his SECOND daughter, so he clearly is not just the definition of a dad, he legally is Barry's father so that would legally make Iris his sister.
So, yes the show is canonizing and legitimizing incest, because they only think of it as blood-related, which is not true, as has been stated in previous posts.
The writers are just not that good at writing romance or women, for that matter, but this is CLEARLY an example of incest.
Joe became is legal guardian, and Barry literally tells Linda that Joe is his foster father - likely because 'he took me in because my father was wrongly accused of murdering my mother' is a wee bit of a mouthful. In the pilot, Iris says that they're not brother and sister, and in the next one, Barry says that Joe isn't his father.
Barry did not change his name to 'West'. He did not start calling Iris his sister. He did not stop thinking of Henry or Nora as his parents, and if Joe adopted Barry, Henry would have had to sign his parental rights away - do you really think Henry would do that? Barry never says Joe legally became his father, because that doesn't make sense.
Nobody on the show thinks they're related, adoptive or otherwise - because they aren't.
Are you kidding? Because Joe was.
The show is doing no such thing, and you clearly didn't actually read the other posts, because everyone as already discussed it.
That's your opinion, but have you seen Game of Thrones? Because Jaime and Cersei - that's incest.
Edited by arctichigh
Dude, Joe was Barry's legal guardian and The Other Wiki states that Joe is Barry's Foster Father, plus Barry calls Joe his "Dad" and Wally his "Brother" & Joe calls Barry his "Son". A few lines ain't going to change all that other stuff.
Edited by Eagleman
A few of the entries under Celebrity Paradox seem a bit tenuous at best, but this one in particular needs some clarification:
- A possible example. Before Sarah Wayne Callies was part of that show's main cast, she was on Prison Break with Wentworth Miller note (Captain Cold), Dominic Purcell (Heat Wave), Robert Knepper (Clock King) and Peter Stormare (Count Vertigo II), and her being a part of that show was used in articles after her casting.
Is Sarah Wayne Callies a part of the cast of The Flash, or is she just an actress from The Walking Dead who happened to work alongside the other 4 on Prison Break?
If she has appeared on The Flash or one of the other Arrowverse shows at some point, then she can stay, but the line about it being "A possible example" and the mentions of the articles talking about her casting in The Walking Dead really don't fit in here.
If she hasn't appeared on any of the Arrowverse shows, then there really is no point in her being mentioned here at all, unless someone can point out how Celebrity Paradox applies to her.
With the number of times Barry Allen has clutched the Idiot Ball in season 2 alone, should we make a folder, or maybe even a page for that entry?
Edited by lord_drakken_foul
- Unrealistic Black Hole: In the first season finale, Eddie's Heroic Sacrifice erases Thawne from existence, but also somehow creates the singularity they hoped to avoid by having Barry come back before time ran out. A black hole created from a microscopic particle (in this case a proton) would still have the mass of a proton, and would be ridiculously tiny. Then it would evaporate via Hawking Radiation incredibly rapidly. If it somehow, thanks to Timey-Wimey Ball was the proton plus Barry Allen, then it would have the mass of Barry Allen and would still evaporate really fast. It would no more be capable of sucking up a city than would Barry Allen. Also, how/why did it move from the particle accelerator to its location hovering menacingly above the city? All in all, it appears to be less a black hole and more a Plot Hole. Surprisingly, it may even be a justified plot hole, seeing as it was caused by a paradox.
Personally, I see the Black Hole formed at the end of Season 1 as being a hole in TIME, not space like a usual Black Hole. This is because of Barry's time traveling just before the grandfather paradox comes into play. These events forms a singularity of time which ends up also effecting Earth-2 - it is only thanks to Barry's speed and Firestorm's semi-sacrifice that it was mostly closed. I say mostly, as the remains became the 52 rifts between Earth-1 (normal Arrowverse) and Earth-2.
Al the Rouges need for the Five Bad Band is an Evil Genius (So they don't have to keep kidnapping Cisco for their tech). Snart is the Big Bad Lisa is The Dragon and The Dark Chick and Heatwave is a total Brute.
People keep overlooking how the page says a Five Bad Band can be only 4 people.
It seems like most of the similarities in the expy entry are due to conventions in super hero stories. Other times the characters aren't really similar.
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The example writeup is pretty weak, too, and looks like apophenia again:
- Expy: Several of the main characters seem patterned after characters from Arrow.
- Joe West takes the role of both John Diggle and Quentin Lance. He's The Lancer to The Hero and also the Commissioner Gordon.
- Iris West is the equivalent of Laurel Lance, a female childhood friend of the lead who works with his superheroic alter ego without knowing they are one and the same.
- Eddie Thawne is the equivalent of Tommy Merlyn, a friend of the hero who shares a name with the hero's comicbook archnemesis.
Wizzard
- In the first episode, Iris calls the S.T.A.R. Labs particle accelerator an "Atom Smasher", a character from the comics and long-time member of the JSA.
Well, yeah, but the character is named after another term for a particle accelerator (because his grandfather was Cyclotron), so it's possible this one's a coincidence.
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Considering the absolute incessant referencing of everything DC they can, it's really not very likely a coincidence.
I realize this occurs all over the board, but this show seems particularily prone to people listing things in a particular tense. "In the preview of the next episode, Captain Cold is wearing a blue parka", just makes the description in-accurate the next week. If the preview has made something clear, just put it in as such, if it's simply a rumour, it can probably wait until it appears in fact on the show.
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Correct. See Examples Are Not Recent. Fix any such examples you see.
Also, we're not supposed to add stuff for previews anyway. Trailers Always Lie and spoilers.
Pittsburghmuggle
Quick tip from those who don't know "The Flash" and are just getting into the series now - we have no idea who people like "captain cold" are, though I've figured out the characters are already on the show, just not introduced as such yet.
I'm not asking for an explanation on who they are here - just please keep new-to-Flash readers in mind as you edit. The page is not a Flash fanpage, it's a trope page on TV tropes. Keep newbies in mind, as the writers may be setting up plot twists that while no surprises for people in the know, may be surprising for people new to the universe.
Edited by 24.131.245.140 "Freedom is not a license for chaos" -Norton Juster's The Dot and the Line: A Romance in Lower Mathematics
I have a recap page in progress. Can someone help out by putting tropes from the pilot on the associated page?
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"Helping out" generally implies you've at least started the project. ;-)
Edited by 71.170.147.60 You fell victim to one of the classic blunders!
I really feel this is an unfitting example, and gives off a really false idea of how their relationship is depicted in the show.
For starters, the trope itself seems to specify only 'blood' siblings; it notes the ways that the trope is played with and subsequently avoided, but every other example given on the trope page seems to be actual cases of blood siblings (or at least, really extreme cases of adopted sibling incest), which Iris and Barry are not.
Secondly, Barry and Iris aren't formerly adopted; Barry was raised by Joe, but Joe never adopted him, and while they have a surrogate father/son relationship, that alone doesn't make their relationship close to incestuous as Joe didn't raise them as siblings.
Thirdly, Barry specifies that he was crushing on her before Joe took him in, which would really make this closer to a man taking in his daughter's boyfriend than anything else. As his feelings predated the 'not!adoption', I don't think its fair to call them siblings.
Fourthly, and connected to the above, they were both young teens when Barry was adopted. Going by the fact they mentioned he was in Middle School, Barry was about 11-14 when he was taken in by Joe; given the fact that the Westermarck effect only effects kids who were raised together during the first six years of their life, I would say they didn't meet until long after they were old enough to even psychologically consider each other siblings.
Fifthly, the show avoids treating their relationship as anything but a childhood friendship. They haven't even done the cliché 'he's like my brother, he couldn't be a romantic option' thing they do when two friends have one with romantic feelings for the other while that one refuses to believe it, nor has anyone else treated them like they were Like Brother and Sister. Hell, Eddie even noted that he was jealous of Barry at first because of his relationship with Iris, something that one wouldn't over siblings, even 'not real' siblings.
For all intents and purposes, they're close childhood friends at most, not siblings, and trying to label them incestuous comes off as an attempt at trying to present them in a way to make criticizing them easier.
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