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for ongoing cleanup projects.
This isn't Good Gamer 14's first
edit war either.
I'd pm Good Gamer 14 already. Let's wait until tomorrow for them to respond about it.
Edited by Bubblepig “What is that? It's The Unknown!”
As somebody who's read almost every Ultimate Marvel comic issue ever published (minus Ultimate Vision) I can assure you all that Grigor is in the right here. The two versions are so close to identical that if you wrote a story where you replaced Ultimate Frank with 616 Frank, you'd need to make sure to tell the readers, or they might not notice.
^ Ditto with Michael above. Both Ultimate and 616 Frank are pretty much carbon copies. There's even a scene where Ultimate Frank is in prison and the guards allow him access to a criminal that he has a history with and he wants to kill, with one guard telling Frank he has friends among the prison staff. This ties in with the police in both 616 Frank and the MAX Universe Frank tacitly approving of his war on crime and not really putting any effort into apprehending him. Don't know why Good Gamer is so focused on making them different.
It may be somewhat related to American police departments adopting the Punisher symbol
as their logo, partially in response to the Black Lives Matter Movement. There's been somewhat of an attempt to "rehabilitate" the image of the Punisher in mainstream consciousness, so maybe distinguishing that the "main" version of the character has more "redeeming features" than his Ultimate counterpart is related?
Admittedly, I'm guessing here.
Assuming that's true that still wouldn't be Adaptational Villainy since, unless I'm misunderstanding something here, Ultimate Punisher was being released concurrently with the version he's being compared to.
So Good Gamer 14 reply to me on message, they basically complaining about how The Punisher is written as a psycho.
Edited by Bubblepig “What is that? It's The Unknown!”
Sorry about it. I already edit it out with short summary.
“What is that? It's The Unknown!”
Any attempt to "rehabilitate" Punisher's image in response to controversies is, so far, only Draco in Leather Pants. The last big uses of the character were "Punisher: Soviet" (2018-2019, from the The Punisher MAX imprint), Matt Rosenberg's run (also 2018-2019), and some issues of "Savage Avengers" (2019-present, but not in all of them), there was no noticeable change in the character in any of them. Ultimate Punisher was last seen in "Ultimate End" (2015), long before the current controversies.
About that of being "written as a psycho", I can only infer that he's making reference to the image that is currently used as character image. Well, this is a superhero comic, action scenes like that one are a staple of the genre. As for context, Spider-Man simply found Punisher fighting with Boomerang, he fought and defeated them both, and left them there to be taken by the police (it was actually a filler action scene, while the real threat of the story arc was still being developed). But I would prefer it if Good Gamer 14 joins the discussion here, discussing by proxy is hard.
Ultimate Secret Wars
I know from experience that Good Gamer 14 can be hard to reason with; see one of the other edit wars linked by Mew. I still think we should discuss with him here, but I'm just giving a warning now that "calm discussion" probably won't be the end result.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Everybody is bringing up good points. The problem with "written as a psycho" is that well, it's really a case of Depending on the Writer. I think Good Gamer is trying to say that Ultimate Frank is different from 616 Frank..
(Is anyone else getting a Crisis On Infinite Earths vibe?)
...when that's not the case. As far as "psycho" goes, well Frank has never been depicted as a raving lunatic. He may very well be, but "psycho" makes you think of the Joker or Carnage. Frank is pretty much always portrayed as methodical, careful, stoic, remote, and thorough when planning his hits. He isn't an example of no impulse control. He makes sure innocents aren't in the crossfire and won't even kill heroes no matter how much they get in his way or piss him off. I think it is simply a case of Good Gamer trying to shoehorn his own impression of Ultimate Frank into things and not liking it when they meet resistance.
^ Don't agree with your definition of "psycho" there. Colloquially, "psycho" simply implies that a character is unhinged and crazy. There are plenty of fictional characters that are methodical, careful, remote, stoic and thorough...including, y'know...Norman Bates, the character that popularized the word Psycho.
Depictions of Frank have frequently shown him as having a deranged compulsion to kill criminals even with the acknowledgement that his actions will likely not only accomplishing nothing, but may even make things worse. He has also been portrayed as suicidal with his crusade, with his only real motivation to live being that he can't kill more criminals if he's dead.
His unwillingness to kill innocents or heroes is also portrayed as a self-justification: it's okay if he kills people as long as they're bad and it's okay if he evades arrest or punishment himself because everyone he kills is "bad". But even that isn't clear-cut, because there are plenty of works which depict him as trying to kill innocent people who have been framed, mistakenly-I Ded or falsely accused (heck, his very first appearance was trying to kill Spider-man for that reason, and was also the impetus for the Archie vs The Punisher crossover), and the Punisher: War Zone film also portrayed him as accidentally killing an undercover cop and then begging someone to kill him for it.
Granted, his exact level of sanity is a severe case of Depending on the Writer, but writers seem to consistently agree that Punisher having a hair-thin line of difference between himself and the criminals he kills is the most compelling and entertaining version of the character.
That's beyond the point. We are talking about a character and an adaptation, and a user says that it's a case of Adaptational Villainy because Ultimate Punisher is a "raving psycho". That means that Ultimate Punisher is a psycho, but mainstream Punisher isn't. And, as I said and others confirmed, both characters are so similar that they are almost interchangeable. We can discuss if Punisher counts as a psycho or not (or not, it would be Hollywood Psych like with most fictional characters), but under which logic can we consider only one of them a psycho?
Besides, the proposed text does not say just "psycho", but "raving psycho". That would be what Traveler 123 was saying he's definitely not.
Ultimate Secret Wars
To avoid talking past each other, what I'm gathering is that your disagreement is that Traveler is stating that both Punishers are "psychos" but neither are "raving psychos"?
My point was that both of them are psychos, and how "raving" it is depends on the story and the writer. The Punisher may usually be calculating and methodical, but it doesn't really take much to turn him into the type of violent crazy person that loses control (while avoiding collateral deaths). My point is that trying to discern whether Ultimate/Punisher is a "psycho" or a "raving psycho" or any other type of psycho is irrelevant.
I think this is getting a bit outside of the purpose of ATT; detailed discussions on the arguments need to go to the forums or the discussion page.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
I have removed the entry, as proposed. There are users who support the removal, and none have provided a counter-argument (and the user, who was informed, did not join the discussion himself).
Ultimate Secret Wars
I see you want to hang me for an edit on a minor character from an universe that was cancelled years ago.
I put the Adaptational Villainy entry in the Punisher's folder because he was introduced as worse psycho than 616 Punisher. Bendis hates characters like the punisher so he when out of his way to portray him as negatively as possible. I don't know how he acts in the post-Ultimatum era so if you are so sure he's a carbon copy of his 616 counterpart then just turn Adaptational Villainy into Adaptational Jerkass.
"I see you want to hang me"? Come on. To quote the great Tori Amos, "Get off that cross, we need the wood."
For the record, Good Gamer 14 has sent me a message apologizing for all this. He says that his entry was not politically motivated and that he hasn't actually read the comics being troped here: he saw youtube summaries, and those summaries said that Ultimate Punisher was a psycho, so he repeated that (he also said that, according to those summaries, the writer "hates" Punisher, so I suspect he may have seen biased summaries). He says that he's not a troublemaker, he saw that he was being accused and lost it.
Ultimate Secret Wars
I'm now more concern about how they see that their edit "upset a number of people enough to start digging on my profile and my activity."
Like, instead of accept that they did something wrong, they think other tropers just look up their history to get them.
Edited by Kuruni
^ Paraphrase, don't quote DM's directly. EDIT: Oh NVM, if it's from their appeal.
They DM'd me too defending themself, which is whatever to me because I don't care about the subjects they're discussing, I just note whenever I recognize that a troper has a pattern of behavior. I find it weird they DM'd individual people instead of just focusing on defending themself in public here, especially because they had a more overdefensive tone in public.
Edited by mightymewtron I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
First — I wanna apologize to everyone in this forum for my unnecessary rude and arrogant comment born out of anger and frustration.
Second — I couldn't defend myself after my comment because I got suspended a day later with editing and commenting privileges deactivated, as I was accused of many things by the mod that suspended me that I will not discuss.
Third — I didn't want to start an edit war or push any political opinion or agenda. To explain myself, I saw a few summaries of Ultimate Spider-Man on YouTube with the people telling the story going on a tangent about how Bendis' didn't like the Punisher and thus made him into incoherent psycho, so I found it weird that its character section didn't mention this. I didn't know that using Adaptational Villainy was a sensitive topic on the page since many people use it a lot in a incorrect way when regarding the Ultimates, if I knew beforehand I wouldn't added the entry the second time.
Fourth — I sent the DMs because I wanted to defend myself from the accusations as I had no way of commenting on this forum because of my suspension.
Fifth and last — I always thought I was someone with no noteworthy reputation around here since I barely interact with other tropers and I avoid editing pages with a lot of activity. If I had know that my negative interactions had left a bad impression of my person, I wouldn't had written my comment the way I did since those interactions made me look like a troublemaker that wants to force his opinion around here that Can't Take Criticism, even though it wasn't my intention. Because I feel that I was just another average troper, it both surprised and angered me when I saw you discussing my past negative interactions as if I was a troublemaker that goes around getting into fights with other tropers. My comment didn't help my case as I was suspended for picking fights a day later, I just got unsuspended with a stern warning.
Edited by GoodGamer14
^^ I didn't, that was from Appeal thread.
^^ Well, apology's accepted on my part, friend.
Just...in the future, remember that reverting things without discussion is an Edit War.
Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
The character page for the comic book "The Ultimates" here has an entry about Punisher. There was an entry that said "This version of the Punisher doesn't have any of his 616 counterpart's self-control and moral compass, which leads to him being constantly at odds with the Ultimates and Spider-Man." It was added by Good Gamer 14 as Anti-Villain, and then changed by Chrononaut 70 to Adaptational Villainy.
I removed it as misuse. The Punisher has been changed very little (if at all) between original and adaptation. In both cases we talk about a cold and stoic vigilante that kills petty criminals with no remorse and with extreme prejudice. The only "self-control" and "moral compass" is that he only kills criminals and not innocent people; again, that is true to both versions. Still, this put him at odds with heroes with a Thou Shalt Not Kill code... again, in both versions.
Good Gamer 14 added it again, this time saying this: "This Punisher is way more insane than his 616 counterpart, with him being introduced as a raving psycho during Ultimate Spider-Man. This became more notable when he killed his 616 counterpart during Secret Wars (2015)." Oh, that changes everything! Ultimate Punisher killed the Punisher of another universe! But wait... the original killed three knock-offs of himself in Welcome Back, Frank, and recently tried to kill the Cosmic Ghost Rider (a Frank Castle of another timeline, who was turned into a Ghost Rider, an herald of Galactus and a servant of Thanos and loads of other crazy stuff) when he knew that there was another Frank Castle in town. I would say "again, in both versions", but it's getting repetitive.