Ask The Tropers

I think the example should be added back of its a known meme in the Jojo community. The use of word trap as a slur is a recent thing i learned. Though, i guess the word has started to decay.

Narancia being mistaken for a girl long precedes the trap jokes to my knowledge.

I'm hardly privileged to address the issue directly, but I've definitely heard that "trap", when used to refer to a character who presents as one gender while actually being another, is homo/transphobic. As such, its use on wiki articles should be limited to In-Universe quotes.

I've added it back but with the word "trap" removed since it isn't really necessary for the example to work.

Trap is inherently transphobic for the same reason calling a feminine-but-straight guy "gay" is homophobic.

That said, if the meme in the fandom is based around "trap" then I would say that the example should stay. It would just be a transphobic meme.

Trans person here. Yes, it's still a slur, as its basis is in transmisogynist cliches about trans women really being men trying to trick straight cis guys into sex. It comes from noted internet sewage dump 4chan, and is thrown about at actual trans people and used to dismiss criticism of transphobic plots because "oh they're really just a feminine boy so it's not transphobic, checkmate SJ Ws". Being that the contested example is about a fandom meme and anime fandom is teeming with transphobia, the slur should not be included.

Should all references to it be removed from the site?

I know it's listed on the main Anime Memetic Mutation page and it's likely on a few other pages too because it's a meme term within fandoms. It's not considered the worst slur, but a slur is a slur and this site doesn't casually allow slurs unless directly quoting something.

But if it really is a meme within the fandom, we shouldn't exclude it just because some people take offense to it. That's just plain censorship.

"Being that the contested example is about a fandom meme and anime fandom is teeming with transphobia, the slur should not be included."

Unless I'm missing something, this line of argument seems backwards to me: if anime fandom is teeming with transphobia, it seems like the right thing to do is call it out for it, not pretend it's not a problem.

I think documenting it and calling it out for what it is makes the most sense.

Not concerned about "censorship" but ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away either.

"Calling out" people for using a controversial term would violate the Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement. Just leave it.

As noted, we do have a policy on not allowing slurs except in direct quotations, though.

I'm not expert, but on the image board I frequently visit "trap" tag is compliment for being Wholesome Crossdresser. Of course, since we have Wholesome Crossdresser trope, there's no need to use the term if it might come off as slur.

I don't know much either, but from what I heard the term "Trap" refers to guys that just happen to be really feminine, called "Traps" because in Anime where the term originates from these feminine guys would look like women to try and sleep with other men more easily. That would mean this isn't a term that actually has anything to do with transpeople, however I can also see how this origin could still bring up implications of transphobia.

I mostly feel, though, that if people do consider the word offensive it's not really worth keeping if we can easily avoid using it, but also that getting into a conversation about how transphobic the meme may be is a violation of the ROCEJ and doesn't feel necessary. It's not our job to go around shaming communities for views or jokes that may or may not be offensive.

WarJay77 made my point well. nrjxll, where is that policy? And not everyone agrees it's a slur, anyway.

^^ Seconded.

Thirded on War Jay reply

"Not anyone agrees it's a slur, anyways" is setting a low bar. In any case, I'd listen to the actual trans person who has posted on this thread.

Never mind the example still makes sense if you remove the slur and leave it at "best girl".

^ I mean, everyone here seems to agree with that. What we agree less with is the idea of calling it out publicly, as if it's even within our territory as a community to go and call other communities transphobic.

That's just drama importation in a different guise. Let's not start "calling out" other sites.

Well, one meme i know is Star Wars General Ackbar Its a Trap which is use. Bit i dont think that should be deleted.

I never took it as offensive. I just thought of it as a reaction to the character's appearance, leading to Viewer Gender Confusion. Not helping is the idea that this may have been a reference to the Trope Namer for Dude Looks Like a Lady, as his Stand is named Aerosmith.

I certainly agree that we should not call out communities for being bigoted. That's certain to cause more trouble than it's worth, especially since not everyone agrees on how offensive the word is.

A trans woman here: It's more or less unanimously considered a slur by the trans community, no matter how much certain segments of the anime fandoms try to defend it.

It was created in anime fandoms as a largely blanket term for any character who induces an Unsettling Gender-Reveal in the audience by fandoms who have very little concern for the concerns of the trans community. It's frequently used as an insult against real life trans people. This is transphobic no matter what, because it perpetuates the idea that any AMAB^note Assigned Male At Birth person presenting as feminine is trying to "trick" straight men into falling for them (which not only gets trans women killed by insecure men, but actually forms the basis for a legal defence for doing so in several first world countries).

There are some trans people who use it for themselves, but quite frankly a cisgender person (even — perhaps especially — if they happen to be LGB) has no business defending its use.

For a more thorough explanation from a transgender woman, I'd recommend ContraPointss video on the matter (which can be found here).

"Trap" doesn't just get used for Dude Looks Like a Lady characters and Wholesome Crossdresser characters. I've seen it get used for explicitly trans ones too. That's where the slur comes from. I know some people, cis and trans, identify as "traps" but it's generally seen by trans people as a slur.

I'm not sure if noticing it because it's an example counts. A lot of memes use even worse ethnic and gendered slurs yet we don't post them.

I have to say, the "defense" that "oh no, it doesn't always get used for trans characters. It mostly sees use for cisgender but gay characters tricking straight men into sex" is n't great since it's both homophobic and transphobic. Like, there's a lot of people out there who think that trans people are just trying to "trick" straight men; it's similar logic behind bathroom bans (although there it's "trying to trick the system so they can peep on girls"). There's a reason trans/gay panic is a thing.

So I really don't think it can be argued that it isn't transphobic. We have two transgender tropers saying it is, and the best counterargument is "well, it's actually just homophobic."

So I guess there are three points that I think need to be addressed:

One, is the meme actually "best trap"? If the meme is actually "best girl" then we're fine, but if the meme is "best trap" then that's another thing.

Two, if a meme is transphobic/homophobic/racist, does it need to documented? If it's a genuine example of Memetic Mutation, does that override ROCEJ in this instance?

And third, if the above two conclude it should be documented, should it be pointed out that the meme is transphobic/homophobic/racist? I used the term "call out" earlier and I want to make clear I'm not saying "... and anime fans are transphobic," I want the example to make it clear that the meme itself is transphobic. I feel like not doing so amounts to effectively endorsing use of the word like that.

Anyhoo, my two cents.

v Pretty much that's summing up my point more concisely. Thanks RR.

This discussion isn't about the real life connotations of the term "trap"; it's about an anime meme. If that meme is centered around / includes the term "trap", then removing the word defeats the purpose of listing the meme in the first place.

Is the word "trap" essential to the meme or not? If not, cut it. If yes, add a disclaimer that it's offensive and shouldn't be used.

^ ninja'd :P

Treating Narancia as if he were a girl is definitely a real meme in the JoJo fandom, and using the exact word "trap" is not a necessary part of the meme. I already added it back as only "Narancia is best girl", and if people consider the word "trap" to be offensive, I'm fine with leaving it out of the example.

Neat-o burrito.

Then I think this can be shut as this query is handled, though at some point maybe I'll bring up my second and third point for discussion on Wiki Talk.

We do not censor our content because some people may find it offensive. I haven't read/watched it and I don't know the fandom very well, but if "trap" is part of the meme, it should be kept. If it isn't, it should be cut for reasons having nothing to do with its "offensiveness."

Yes we do. We don't use the N Word outside of specific quotes because not everyone reading or editing has N-Word Privileges. Same goes for any other slur.

It depends. The whole debate comes from a common misconception that trans a cross dressing are the same thing. A trans person is someone who was born one gender but identifies as another. A trap is someone who dresses up in female clothing but identifies as their birth gender (so basically another word for crossdresser). If you call a trans person a trap then yeah I’d say its a slur but if you call a crossdresser a trap then its up to the individual. Their are some crossdresser who have no problem with the term and some who take offense to it. As for the question are traps gay? It depends. Their are many crossdressers who are gay but their are also bi and straight crossdressers.

As for what you should do I’d say go with your gut

Can anyone link to some administrivia page saying we don't use slurs outside of direct quotations? I think other examples like the one on Memes.Anime should be kept. Pichu-kun said "A lot of memes use even worse ethnic and gendered slurs yet we don't post them." Can you provide an example of that? It's worth noting that YMMV.Scooby Doo Mystery Incorporated has a note saying "It should be noted that it has derogative connotations." regarding the word "trap".

I wouldn't think it needed to be called out. Don't use slurs in wiki writing unless it's a direct quotation and it is necessary to illustrate the example. This is basic ROCEJ stuff.

I'll bring up another similar example: "Trapsuki" from Doki Doki Literature Club!. It (the concept is that Natsuki from DDLC is a biological male) quickly became a Forced Meme that nearly everyone, including the game's creator, hated and was promptly cut from the YMMV page for that reason, but references still remain on the wiki. When we refer to Salvato's distaste for the meme, are we forced to Bowdlerize and not refer to it by name?

I also refer you all to the recent Hot Gypsy Woman TRS, in which it was decided that simply containing a "slur" is not a valid reason to neuter content on TV Tropes.

^ The Hot Gypsy Woman example kept the slur because there was no other term that got the point across as effectively. "Trap" is not such a case.

And putting slur in quotes like that is in very poor taste.

I have to agree with whoever said the term "trap" isn't a slur. At least, that wasn't the original usage. It was a fanspeak term specifically for anime and video game characters that were deliberately designed to look and sound female, but were actually male. It had nothing to do with gay and trans persons.

One of the best examples is Shion from the King of Fighters series. During production of KOF XI, Shion was originally going to be a female character, including all voice recordings. But as the game neared completion, the game developers decided to change Shion's gender to being male, while leaving his character sprite and voice recordings as-is, in order to screw with male gamers. Yes, SNK actually admitted that.

A more recent example would Oboro Tsukimigusa from Shimoneta, another character that was deliberately designed to look and sound like a female (played by female voice actresses in the sub and dub versions for the sake of ambiguity), despite being biologically male. Which was done to set up the gender reveal in episode 9. The fandom refers to Oboro as "Trap-san" and "Trap-sama" as a compliment, because male viewers still say he's hot. Some have even admitted they'd probably hit it, despite being straight themselves, 'cuz Oboro is drawn to appear like an attractive female.

But like many things, the original purpose and meaning of the term has been changed to make it something it wasn't.

^^ I would honestly believe the term went into decay meaning. Just like retardation and one day autistic/autism.

@crazysamaritan: Yes, I was referring to the Japanese audio and the English dub for Shimoneta.

@WhirlRX: Pretty much.

It wasn't a slur per se, but A: It gets used as one now and B: It was always rooted in transphobia. You can argue the semantics of whether that counts as a slur or not, but it sure as hell is inherently transphobic.

That said, this is still neither here nor there, the original query has been answered, any further discussion should go to either OTP (if it's about "trap" in particular) or Wiki Talk (if it's about usage of slurs or derogatory language on the wiki). Either way there's no reason to keep this open.

Agreed.