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Aa the one who proposed that Killgrave? I'm saying he Keeps. Saying he's got less character than "Not Important" is blatantly false—he's a Faux Affably Evil Large Ham who breaks the 4th wall with fun—and despite the limited time it has, there's real work put into it and it's played up for a horror work. It's not some talentless Creepypasta all about death and despair, it's a fun little fan film of Killgrave revealing how he's screwed with a heroic detective, using him to send a message to his Arch-Enemy Jessica Jones, and ending the film with a 4th wall break that's very cheeky and done as a reference to his original comic personality.

Bias might be present but I am not at all for cutting this on the basis of "no story except villain winning", it's got a creative twist and adequate build-up to instead come off as a short horror story—not a poorly written, underdeveloped Creepypasta.

Edited by Ravok on Dec 28th 2020 at 5:03:36 AM

I'll need to think on Killgrave.

Edit: Upon rewatching, keep the Purple Man.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Dec 28th 2020 at 8:29:57 AM

I'm in agreement on keeping Kilgrave, honestly, having checked it out beforehand.

Regarding Sephiroth...I guess I'm leaning keep? Odd as it is to say, but we need fewer abstains, that's not fair to the proposer. And for the love of all things sacred, don't just mirror my vote, this merits discussion.

I'd say keep kilgrave then.

Well, with Lighty chiming in, I'm going to say keep Kilgrave.

As for Sephiroth, I don't think I can vote in good conscience until creativename outlines how bad his deeds are compared to those of the other characters. This is a common mistake, but the Heinous Standard doesn't refer to what redeeming/mitigating qualities a character lacks in comparison to other characters, it refers to how bad their crimes are compared to other characters'.

My concern is as follows: how different is the abridged from the original, and does it take liberties with the story other than just leaving stuff out?

Imperial also raises a fair point about heinousness.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Dec 28th 2020 at 8:24:31 AM

Whats the work?

The Eminence In Shadow is a 2018 Japanese Web Serial Novel by Aizawa Daisuke.

Just like how everyone adored heroes in their childhood, a certain young man adored those powers hidden in shadows. After hiding his strength and living the mediocre life of a mob character by day while undergoing frenzied training by night, he finally reincarnates into a different world and gains ultimate power. The young man who is only playing at being a power in the shadows, his misunderstanding subordinates, and a giant organization in the shadows that gets trampled….. This is the story of a young boy who had adored powers in shadows possibly eventually reigning over the world of shadows in another world.

The series has a manga adaptation, a light novel adaptation published by Kadokawa, and English translation of the light novel by Yen Press. A spin-off manga, "Eminence in Shadow - Shadow Side Story" has been announced.

Who is Crimson?

Anyway thousands of years ago, vampires reigned supreme and fed off humanity, treating them as cattle. Until humanity fought back and defeated them. One vampire progenitor called Elizabeth queen of Blood believed that peace could be achieved between humans and vampires and created a kingdom which did just that. All were welcome. She personally abstained from the drinking of human blood to show her commitment to the peace.

One vampire crimson despised the peace and wanted to have humanity once more under foot so joined as a "refugee". He bidded his time and joined her inner circle and waited for the red moon. During the red moon, vampires are superempowered and gain an enormous Powr boost. He tricked elzibath into drinking human blood for the first time in years during the red moon, this caused her to go insane. He then sicced her on the kingdom killing large numbers while hebe used his forces to kill her peaceful vampire servants. They then wound go into destroy in three days every surrounding country before the red moon subsisteted.

Her head servant Mary (called Milia in the original version) discovered her and how she was broken mentally at what she had done. She staked herself but it missed her heart by inches, causing her to still be alive but trapped inside a coffin of tentacle and blood which formed around her. Mary swore to be able to kill her master Elizabeth if meant stopping her from causing pain to herself and others.

Anyway in the present ,Crimson rules as one of 3 demon rulers a place called outlaw city. A Wretched Hive of the poor as well as criminals. Crimson intends on reawakening Elizabeth and having her finish the job. Wiping out the entire world and culling humanity to allow vampires to reign, the world Wil literally be drowned in blood.

For his start during the red moon, he releases superempowered vampires and ghouls to slaughter en masse the human citizens of the city as the first big step. As he revives Elizabeth, leaving as he's done as he knows at first awakening she'll be a rabid animal even he can't control, be runs into Cid/Shadow who stakes him. Cid,his sister claire and mary team up and stop Elizabeth.

Mitigating factors?

Nope. Hes a vampire supermascit who believe humanity should be under foot and views Elizabeth as a tool to get it.

He is listed as A GDV on his character page because sigh... of course. But I'd contest that. We get into his head and he does have personality being a power hungry dick.

Heinous standard?

Okay so this is series has a Jacked standard. Cid and shadow garden frequently experiment / torture the criminals they capture due to comedic socipathy. But their determined to never a hurt an innocent person and only do that to murderous scumbags.

The cult of diablos are a vile religion worshiping a demon. They have for centuries kidnapped children and broken their minds into slaves with all just empty shells. They have also been killing off any descendants of the three heroes which sealed their mistress Diablos away.

Crimson though at the moment. Is easily the series worst villain. Wiping out three populated countries , turning Elizabeth into a feral monster against her will , trying to massacre outlaw city and finally trying to start an apocalypse to flood the world in blood of his victims. Easy, easy pass.

I mean, Sephiroth still attempts to wipe out all life on the planet, so heinousness isn't an issue. But yeah, Sky brings up a good point about how different things are from the original.

It's still a fanwork though. We judge those on their own merit.

Was waiting to see Abridged Sephiroth talked over for a while... I'm gonna lean yes myself as well. To my familiarity, which is admittedly mostly this site and a few stray episodes, he's played very seriously, The Comically Serious at most. And his Freudian Excuse? Eh, I'm personally a little sympathetic to it, but it comes before his Start of Darkness, not after, and I don't think it's explored or really treated as sympathetic. His backstory is undeniably sad if you ask me, but we've approved villains with much, much worse backstories, and I don't think his backstory tracks well enough in any manner that could even slightly justify his deeds in the end, and Tifa explicitly calls him on how bullshit it is.

To clarify on the "changed" note, FF7 Machinabridged is a TFS production. Characterization is vastly and sweepingly changed, it's repurposed to be more of a comedy or in this case dramedy, and completely rewritten. This isn't a situation where they just trimmed it, this is a complete rewrite/fan-made adaptation essentially. Nothing to worry about there.

As for heinousness... Sephy plans to destroy the world, kill everyone, and become a God. Nobody's worse than that in the story to my knowledge. That's definitely bad enough for me.

Leaning keep on Kilgrave as well.

Edited by Riley1sCool on Dec 28th 2020 at 5:34:02 AM

Yes to Crimson.

Addendum: Since liberties are evidently taken with the story, plot and characters, I'll just edge towards approving Sephy the Abridged as well.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Dec 28th 2020 at 11:57:59 AM

Hmm thinking it over and with sephiroth thanks to Riley's points.

to Crimson.

@Bullman: I wouldn't mind that.

@Ravok: That's a fair point. Thinking it over, claiming that Killgrave has less character than Not Important is being too harsh and isn't a fair comparison in hindsight, so I rescind that statement and I apologize for that to everyone. I'll avoid making such comparisons in the future and only use them in works that clearly have less effort put into them. Honestly, I didn't even consider the fanservice moments in the work that show how much effort was put into it, which does make the work more legitimate. With all this in mind, I'll lean keeping Killgrave. I'll be sure to consider this type of criteria in the future when I propose other cuts.

Sorry everyone for that cut proposal.

@Riley1sCool: Okay. I'll vote to Sephiroth, now that it's been established to be different than its original work.

Edited by DrUnknown on Dec 28th 2020 at 5:46:37 AM

Thanks to some arguments, changing to a for Sephiroth.

to Crimson, and switching to a keep for Kilgrave.

Edited by falcontalons on Dec 28th 2020 at 5:49:29 AM

Yes to Crimson.

On Killgrave, I'm going to switch to abstain until I watch it for myself. Which shouldn't take that long.

Again anymore opinions on my suggestion here?

Edited by Bullman on Dec 28th 2020 at 7:55:25 AM

Yes to Crimson.

Works for me, Bull.

So, Frieza is listed for Dragon Ball Z: Budokai for his appearance in one of the game's What If? scenarios:

*Budokai: Frieza is the Villain Protagonist of the first game's What If? story "Raging Frieza" & "The True Ruler". He becomes enraged when he's beaten to the Dragon Balls and thus can't become immortal, and fights the heroes. In succession, he defeats and presumably kills Gohan, Piccolo, and—after powering up—Vegeta and Goku. He successfully wishes for eternal life, then blows up Namek, after which he flies to Earth, planning to destroy it as well.

I've just played through this game, including the What If? parts, and personally, I don't think any of them are meant to be taken very seriously, and the Frieza one is no different.

Just watch the last minute of this video and I think you'll see what I mean. It just strikes me as way too intentionally goofy to count with the silly expressions and the happy music going along with him destroying Namek and saying he's going to destroy Earth. If you all disagree, that's fine, I just thought I'd give my two cents.

Edited by Trashman91 on Dec 28th 2020 at 6:37:52 AM

Mmm... tentative to Sephiroth.

Sephiroth sounds like a Keep—at least for now, and I'll give a tentative 'Yes' at the moment.

@DrUnknown: Don't feel bad for the cut recommendation, it was a solid argument but one I ultimately disagree on and I'm glad we got it resolved so smoothly

Here's a quickie one that I'm pretty ambivalent on but also think passes:

What's the work?

Teen Titans is a modern claaaaassic cartoon series released over a decade ago showcasing the titular Teen Titans—comprised of budding ninja wonder Robin, shapeshifting Beast Boy, cybernetic, uh, Cyborg, alien powerhouse Starfire, and sorceress supreme Raven—and their various misadventures in fighting crime and other ne'er-do-wells threatening their fair city of Jump City.

Now, the actual show has been discussed already...but there's a toe-in comic, Teen Titans Go!, that ran for dozens of issues, and I think a one-shot is worth discussion...

Who is he?

"The Agent"—heavily implied to be Satan or some demonic entity comparable—is a self-proclaimes "dealmaker and soul taker" who features in #19 of the comic book tie-in, titled "Song of the Dead."

What has he done?

Having approached the punk rock supervillain Johnny Rancid, the Agent strikes a bargain with Johnny to make him a popular rock star with countless adoring fans in exchange for something unspoken...and as Johnny succeeds in becoming a popular rock star for Jump City, he totally fails to realize that his music has a rather interesting side effect: that being that any nearby corpses are risen from the dead with a hunger for human flesh and brains.

As the Teen Titans rush to ward off a growing spat of zombie attacks, saving several people throughout the city from the creatures, they eventually track Johnny to a concert...just in time for an army of zombies to burst in and try to devour the dozens of attendees, all of whom are only saved by the arrival of the Titans.

A horrified Johnny, shocked at what his music is causing, confronts the Agent, who reveals he's turned Johnny and his music into a conduit for necromancy that he is using to raise armies of corpses to do his bidding—and now that his test runs are done being dished out across Jump City? He's taking it global.

Forcing Johnny to enter a radio station, the Agent brags his plan to broadcast a nationwide signal of Johnny's singing to raise corpses out of morgues, cemeteries, and everywhere else across the nation and cause attacks across the nation—then the world, until his zombie army has overwhelmed the world and the Agent reigns supreme over the mortal realm.

Confronted by the Teen Titans, the Agent immediately focuses his attention on Raven, offering the powerful dark magic user a deal to grant her any wish in exchange for her servitudes and her soul, to which she agrees....but unfortunately, between Raven's uniquely black soul coupled with her wish being to rid the world of the Agent, the twisted entity is beaten and vanishes from the mortal realm, saving the city.

Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?

Nah, he's just a darkly mysterious thing who wants to conquer the mortal dimension, nothing even remotely to discuss.

Heinousness?

The franchise has quite the Rogues Gallery, and two CMs already, but tbh I think the Agent squeaks by for a one-shot. He's setting zombies onto various parts of Jump City—from lone couples in the park to dozens of concert-goers—that explicitly are trying to eat humans alive, after which he follows it up by revealing he's planning nation—then global—wide zombie chaos to overrun the world and rule the Earth.

Considering pretty much every other villain except Trigon and his ilk at best threaten the singular Jump City, I think the Agent's plans for the world as a whole give him plenty push—even in lacking more personal nastiness, he's a one-shot who's planning for zombies to slaughter and devour people across the world, and even with the lighthearted nature of the franchise to consider it's played plenty serious.

Final Verdict?

I'd say he's a technical Keep

Leaning on the Agent. Is this Recursive Adaptation comic canon to the show?

Agent

Funny coincidence. I just read teen titans : raven comic. Which is sorta a more modern and mature take on the comics and cartoon to see if Trigon counts. He does not (not heinous enough) but him and slade are appearing in the sequel so heres hoping things change.

Yes to the Agent, keep Kilgrave and I abstain on Sephiroth.

Here is the Hodge write up:

• X Men: Cameron Hodge started off as a minor character, who was revealed to an anti Mutant bigot. Hodge was an American liaison to the Genoshan government and was helping the Genoshan government enslave its mutant population. After Storm destroyed a dam the Genoshan government was building, Hodge was hit by a giant tidal wave, costing him an arm and a leg. Embittered by that experience, Hodge joined a government task force investigating UFO crash sites. At one such site, Hodge found the Phalanx, an alien organism that is a living virus. Hodge becomes a willing servant to the Phalanx, wanting to help it assimilate the human race. Hodge informs the Phalanx of the importance of capturing and assimilating mutants to increase its power. After the Phalanx captures Wolverine, Hodge has it assimilate Wolverine's skeleton to study him from the inside out. Hodge wants to help the Phalanx assimilate all organic life though out the universe, believing that the Phanalix will end organic reproduction and cleanse the universe of mutation, not caring that humanity will lose all independent thought and freedom in the process. After the Phanalax is defeated, Hodge joins the government again and masterminds a plan to kidnap mutants and turn them into mind-controlled slaves.

Edited by Overlord on Dec 28th 2020 at 6:43:47 AM

When there's a CM, you know who to vote... The Agent!