During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Alright, Kehck and Jade dude are tweaked; thanks to whoever added the Bio Ware entries (I cut them from the main Sandbox). Now: Sleeping Dogs and Stranglehold?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
For Tomoe and Victor Frankenstien.
I think Mar Lou may count, and good rewrite for tomoe, and yea to Viktor as well
Man, I'm curious again. How does Hopper not qualify as a Complete Monster? I personally found him worse than Lotso.
edited 12th Apr '14 5:02:28 PM by AfroWarrior27
Honoring the promise he made to his mom on her deeath bed
I believe it was because he promised his dying mother that he wouldn't kill Molt after her death and didn't.
![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
edited 12th Apr '14 5:05:39 PM by doineedaname
Well, yeah there's that. But beside that promise, Hopper himself has no redeemable quality.He seem like an awful person simply because he is. At-least Lotso had sympathetic back story that explains why he such a horrible monster. Hopper seems cruel for the sake of being cruel.
edited 12th Apr '14 7:20:07 PM by AfroWarrior27
Yeah, but the redeeming quality still exists.
edited 12th Apr '14 5:21:37 PM by AfroWarrior27
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
x6 *points to the Never Again list* We do put the reason why characters don't count on the very first page.
Or you know, use the search bar function.
edited 12th Apr '14 5:56:12 PM by Shaoken
Just to inform: Just because a character isn't a CM doesn't mean they're not horrible people. Hopper is a sadistic asshole who's a murderous tyrant, and would count on the list if he didn't have that quality.
we need 'em 100 percent with zero redeeming qualities.
Found this for YMMV.Corpse Bride
- Complete Monster: Lord Barkis Bittern. Despite his snobbery, he at least seems to care about his bride, but in reality, he's a male Gold Digger. In a flashback image, we see a shadowy figure attacking, robbing, and killing Emily, the title character. Later on in the film, it's revealed that Barkis was her fiancée and murderer, and is thus responsible for her depression. After marrying Victoria, he plans to rob her blind and murder her as well. Unfortunately, her parents are broke, and marrying Victoria to him for wealth he doesn't actually have. When he learns this, he tries to kill both Victor and Victoria out of frustration.
Isn't he on the main list? If he's not, he probably should be
Lizzid people!
It's also on the western animation page Monster.Western Animation.
edited 12th Apr '14 6:08:12 PM by AustinDR
Alright, just checking.
x6 *points to the Never Again list* We do put the reason why characters don't count on the very first page.
Or you know, use the search bar function. Hmm huh? I miss that.
Though, take into consideration that this forum is 968 pages long. I think most people would just skip to the last page and voice there thought there, mainly if they don't visit this thread that often.
Edit (Reading the front page now) Ohhhh didn't know there was rule against bringing it up.
edited 12th Apr '14 7:36:19 PM by AfroWarrior27
The Permanently Confused
Hopper being excepted still seems odd to me, despite knowing why. I'm not going to argue about it, though.
It's not like you'd have to read the 966 pages in-between. Looking at the first post before you start posting in a thread you've never been in before just seems like common sense.
That was the second post, and the actual post itself is huge. It even takes a while to scroll down before you even reach to the examples. So no one would be able to even see it.
And beside that, I commented on this thread before, so when I return here I was sent to the last post I commented on.
edited 12th Apr '14 7:53:53 PM by AfroWarrior27
Let's not get too unpleasant. The first post is long...I agree, Hopper is an example that feels like he should be on the list, and if they hadn't given him that one line of dialogue, he would be.
We run into a lot of examples we'dlike to go up, but can't do it because of our criteria. Just remember that not being a CM doesn't make you not a horrible bastard
Lizzid people!
Any more thoughts on the Tomoe write up?
"Just remember that not being a CM doesn't make you not a horrible bastard".
True. But I know from my own experience, that if you really hate a character, it can be hard to swollow that he/she didn't qualify as a Complete Monster. And as for Hopper, he seems to have only one redeeming quality (as much as he was a bastard, he had obviously loved his mother, as he will keep a promise to her even after she died). I guess you just have to find other tropes, where the character can fit in.
edited 13th Apr '14 2:48:41 AM by Furienna
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
That was actually discussed, in the "Almost A Monster," but decided against. Hopper would probably be a Jerkass.
BTW, that Song Of Ice And Fire dude probably WOULD count in most works, but the heinous standard is SO high. I can't think of a work where the heinous bar is so high except maybe Berserk.
I've submitted Akasha's write-ups to the edit request thread.
There's another such example I wanted to bring up: Deacon Frost from the first Blade movie. He hasn't been discussed yet, but was cut a while ago for being listed as a Zero Context Example on the YMMV page, along with Drake (Dracula) and Danica from the third film. Comparing all the villains together I think Frost may be the only to both surpass the others in heinousness and lack any redeeming traits.
The second and third movie's Big Bads also have the general goal of killing or subjugating humanity, so Frost is not a standout in that regard. He surpasses them in the level of casual cruelty he displays, however. For one, he's the one who attacked Blade's pregnant mother and turned her (it seems he fully expected the unborn child to die), which is a standout in any case. He also murders a vampire elder in an exceptionally painful way by removing his teeth and letting him burn up in the sunrise, kills the other council members to complete a sacrifice and become a Physical God, murders his human minions whenever he likes, attacks Blade's mentor Whistler and then leaves him to die slowly, tries to feed a woman to a ghoul-type zombie, and tries to kill a little girl in front of Blade by first threatening to slit her throat and then throwing her in front of city traffic. Besides that, Damaskinos and Novak from the second film seem to have elements of genuine Even Evil Has Loved Ones (Damaskinos for his daughter) and Tragic Monster respectively. Drake also uses a baby as a Human Shield against Blade, but to my knowledge never tried to kill a pregnant woman as well or other vampires on such a scale, while I remember Danica being fairly generic as a villain. Frost is clearly a standout even among the vamps.
That said, his relation with Blade's mother is treated rather ambiguously. Do they love each other? There's not much evidence either way. If anything, Frost seems to treat her more as property than a loved one, keeping her hidden away in his private chambers and boasting to Blade that she belongs to him while having Blade beaten up by his men after finding this out. She's also left morality behind a long time ago, and admits she's simply a bloodthirsty monster when she meets Blade again, so he may simply like her viciousness. He never shows any remorse at her death when Blade fights him in the climax. He's similarly unmoved by any of his other associates who die. What do you guys think?
edited 13th Apr '14 6:29:39 AM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"
- The action anime, Mai-Otome, has Tomoe Marguerite, a Psycho Lesbian to the extreme. She's a Bitch in Sheep's Clothing that uses her charm to mask her malicious intentions, and almost everyone fell for it. Throughout the show, she tried to personally take out Arika, because she saw her as a potential threat to her affections towards her elder Shizuru Fujino. Her most despicable act involved her trying to convince a gang to rape Arika, knowing that if they went through with it, her Otome powers would be neutralized. She later went on to betray the Alliance, stating that she deserved to have anything she wanted, and that everyone's lives (except that of Shizuru's, of course) were meaningless to her. Not even her supposed love for Shizuru is a redeeming factor, since she essentially made her into her plaything, and took great pleasure in it. When Shizuru had revealed to her that she never loved her, Tomoe rants noting the similarities between her and the older Otome, and states that she was entitled to be the only person to have her. She then attempts to attack her and Natsuki.
How's this?edited 16th Apr '14 10:27:56 AM by AustinDR