During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I'll leave it to your discretion Vile. You're right that it doesn't work as it stands so I'd say delete and leave it until someone revisits unless anyone wants to weigh in now?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'd be fine cutting, unless someone's familiar with the series.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
So I looked at the Myst wiki to look up Sirrus, and the thing about Sirrus being a mass-murderer is a bit of an exaggeration. He didn’t kill that many people, and those he did were tied in with his brother, and really only threatens to kill the two major characters. I think he’s more of a Jerk who had the same crimes if Archenar, but doesn’t redeem himself.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
fanfic Majora
Edited by nwotyzal on Oct 15th 2020 at 12:38:53 PM
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Before I vote on Majora, how does he display a human personality? Can you give any specifics and examples?
Also, cut Sirrus.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Showtime!
Cut Sirrus
Leaning on Majora, but i'm seconding N's question before I lock in
to Adrian Turner.
Abstain on Majora until further details about his personality are clarified.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Sirrus. Sorry for missing that.
Goku Black
Cut sirrus.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Professor Gigachad
Just pointing this out, the writeup for H.P. Clancy is weird. There's a grammar mistake (specifically, it says "Clancy has a Bio-Noid that looks like Ryu seemingly kills Irene and then frames Ryu for her murder.") and in general it feels too long. I don't know, it just feels like his crimes could be summarized in a shorter writeup and the current one feels like a plot description.
—signature not found—
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Sure to Turner. Abstain on Majora for the moment. Cut Sirrus.
『 』
Seriously cut Sirius.
Well it looks like Adrian has made it. Which brings us to his accomplice...
Who is he?
The aforementioned Craig Cross, Adrian Turner’s teenage helper and far from the innocent, vulnerable victim he likes to portray himself as.
What has he done?
An utter monster to his mother and mutually abusive to his father, Craig decides to join Adrian on his killing spree after his father broke his arm when Craig taunted him about a missed job opportunity. However, Craig is suspicious of Adrian before they begin and suspects that he will abandon him when given the opportunity. Deciding to kill him when they’ve slaughtered enough people, Craig rigs a bomb using stolen chemicals from his school’s lab and plants it in Adrian’s store.
Directly assisting Adrian with every single before mentioned murder, Craig then kills his father in the most sadistic way he can: shooting him in the leg and enjoying the sight of him in agony for a few moments, then shooting him in the chest to finish him off. He also attempts to kill a woman who was chatting to his father for no reason at all.
Pretending to befriend Jack (one of the protagonists), Craig subtly manipulates both him and the police into thinking that he’s an innocent teenage boy and, when that fails, an unwilling accomplice in an abusive quasi-parental relationship.
Weaponizing this when the police try to question him about the identity of the gunman, Craig uses Jack’s good opinion of him to set a trap. Going to the bathroom before the interrogation, Craig sets a fire underneath the smoke alarm which causes the whole building to be evacuated. When they're outside, Craig goes up and cheerfully greets one of the investigating detectives, giving Adrian his cue to start shooting and resulting in the female officer being shot dead in front of all of her friends and colleagues.
As everybody rushes inside, Jack sees through his act and furiously demands to know who the gunman is, causing Craig to reveal his true colours. Sporting a Slasher Smile, Craig boasts: “we played you like a tune!” and feigns a mental breakdown, stripping off his shirt to show the scars left by his father as a ploy to manipulate everyone there into thinking he’s a victim. He also brings an assault charge against Jack just so he can destroy his career for a laugh.
Knowing that the police are going to be closing in on Adrian, Craig sets off the bomb in his store which results in Adrian’s death and nearly kills the investigating team (a near miss that Craig is disappointed by). Uncaring that the police know that he was involved, Craig continues to taunt Jack and the other officers.
However his confidence soon turns out to be his undoing. Jack turns up at his house, pretending to want to have one last talk with him and Craig is unable to resist the opportunity to continue bullying him. He spitefully taunts Jack and brags that he won’t be able to even get a job in a supermarket after Craig has finished wrecking his career.
Correctly deducing that Craig didn’t kill his father because of the abuse but instead because he just wanted to be in charge (and also killing Adrian for much the same reason) Jack proceeds to press Craig’s Berserk Button by telling him that he botched the “mission” to which Craig indignantly responds that he followed military technique. Unfortunately for Craig, it turns out that Jack is wearing a wire, resulting in his immediate arrest.
He’s last seen smugly grinning as he awaits questioning, still confident he’ll evade justice and evidently proud of all the crimes he has committed.
Redeeming Qualities or Freudian Excuse?
A couple of potential sympathetic traits, but I don’t believe any of them hold up.
Now, Craig IS given a Freudian excuse. His home life was horrible, with his mother being an alcoholic and his father being physically abusive. But as it turns out? Craig himself is equally as abusive. He is utterly horrible to his mother (calling her a worthless whore and a disgrace, nearly hitting her at several points and being a complete tyrant) and was exactly the same to his father as well.
The whole reason why his father broke his arm was because Craig maliciously taunted him about a lost job opportunity. It also turns out that his father was desperate for Craig to appreciate him and that his “good man” act wasn’t just to hide the fact that he was a bastard behind closed doors, but was also a rather pathetic attempt at winning Craig’s approval.
In case you needed any further evidence of how abusive Craig is? It turns out that his father installed a security system which records footage of all the rooms in the house. At first you are led to believe that this was just another way in which he tried to control his family. But he actually had it installed because he was terrified that Craig would come and kill him whilst he slept.
So yes, their relationship is very much mutually abusive. When Craig kills him, it’s much less: “I’m an abused and vulnerable person lashing out” and far more: “I’ll teach that bastard for trying to control me! I’ll let him suffer in agony! Then we’ll see who's the real man here!” Jack also points this out to him in their final scene together. Craig acts indignant but doesn’t deny it. So ultimately? I don’t think this holds up.
Now, his relationship with Adrian. Adrian forced him to be in a sexual relationship and also “showed him the ropes”. But the thing is? Craig needed very little incentive to assist Adrian with his killing spree. He shows no care or attachment at all for Adrian, and no trauma from their sexual relationship (which he in fact uses to manipulate Adrian and convince him that he won’t betray him). He’s also outright proud of all the murders he’s assisted in and is openly gleeful at the fact that he was able to kill Adrian and get away with everything. It’s far more like a partnership between two equally deranged psychopaths than Adrian grooming Craig. So this doesn’t hold up for me either.
Other than that? Nothing. Craig has no redeeming qualities at all and is portrayed as a completely vicious sociopath.
Heinousness?
Craig shares all of Adrian’s crimes and even adds a couple more for good measure, also placing him far above the average killer in the series. His attempted body count is even higher than Adrian’s (the bomb he set off could have killed any number of people), and he’s a complete sadist who enjoys hurting people. Craig easily breaches the standard despite only directly killing a couple of people.
Conclusion?
Me and MGD discussed Craig in some depth and we both came to the same conclusion: none of his potential mitigating qualities add up and he’s shown explicitly to be an equal partner in Adrian’s spree. We’ve decided a yes, but will understand if people think otherwise.
Edited by Atlantis1930 on Oct 15th 2020 at 10:28:58 AM
Cut Sirius.
As we discussed to Craig Cross. I have to admit I was quite skeptical when he was brought up as on paper the guy sounds like he should be sympathetic (teenager from an abusive home who falls into a relationship with a dangerous psychopath), but no he's really not.
Every single thing that could be sympathetic is thoroughly subverted or taken apart. Every moment that could show some humanity he ends up ruining moments later. His past maybe shaped him somewhat but it doesn't come close to explaining or justifying how he acts.
At heart the nicest thing you could say about the guy is he has more impulse control than his partner.
Edited by MGD107 on Oct 15th 2020 at 1:42:22 AM
Craig. Sirrus.
Goku Black
Craig
I'm holding off till all these are done
Goku Black
Right yeah. Is someone keeping track of the eps somewhere so they can all,be compared at the end.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
to Craig.
Mir: Don't worry, we've been keeping copies of each one for just that event.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Leaning yes to Craig.
With Adrian, why didn't he just refuse to sell his store?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I'd like to make just a really slight adjustment to Jeremiah Sand's writeup:
Mandy (2018): Jeremiah Sand is the vicious, cowardly leader of the Children of the New Dawn cult. Having murdered his parents and moved to Los Angeles to indulge in music and drugs, Jeremiah would form countless cults centered around himself to satisfy his narcissism. Working with the demonic Black Skulls biker gang, he makes them his personal attack dogs and allows them to murder and rape whomever they please, holding their chemist hostage to help continue their murder sprees. Taking an obsessive liking to Mandy Bloom, he has the Black Skulls kidnap her and her husband Red Miller, sacrificing one of his men to them as thanks. With the couple in hand, he has Mandy drugged and tries to rape her, while he has Red hung up with barb wire and stabbed in the side, and is Forced to Watch Mandy burned alive after she tarnishes Jeremiah's ego by laughing at him.
Just changing the It's All About Me pothole to Narcissist. Someone did it on the YMMV page without permission, but it fits better.
Edited by Stellarvore on Oct 15th 2020 at 3:51:23 AM
ACW: The guy who wanted to buy it was a utterly immoral businessman who was happy to buy out from underneath them or flat out destroy their business if they didn't agree to sell (in the past he got a restaurant to shutdown by releasing rats inside it) so that in the end they would be left with no choice but to.
He just had no idea his latest target was a dangerous psychopath itching for a reason to kill people.
Edited by MGD107 on Oct 15th 2020 at 1:56:14 AM
Felt like i was ignored before, so here is me repeating it:
The Myst series has mass-murderer Sirrus. As his brother Achenar felt remorse for his actions and does a Heel-Face Turn and Heroic Sacrifice in Myst IV: Revelation, Sirrus not only seems to have no regrets but commits additional atrocities: kidnapping his own sister, taunting her about how he plans to suck her soul out of her body before doing a Grand Theft Me, and then holding her soul captive if the player manages to get his soul out of her body. He taunts her about how he plans on murdering both her and their parents, and in the bad endings where the player loses, he murders his brother and the player.
Like, when and how does he do any mass murdering, Aside from calling him mass murderer, not specyfying how many people he actually killed and if he did so at all, the entry solely focus on him trying to kill 2 or 3 people and thats it.
I believe that the entry should be either deleted or rewritten.