During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Lizzid people!
With some of the songs we have, if the song goes into their psyches as a character analysis, we tend to allow those like Griffith's.
Goku Black
Here's an example
Lost in Space
Okay, but independently of the parent work? That's part of what I mean about requiring external context. If you didn't know what the song was talking about, could you judge it on its own merits alone?
Edit: Okay, I just listened to a bit of it. No, there's not enough context there. It's just a character rapping about how awful they are. The video even uses comic book panels. This is exactly what I mean by "not separable". For a CM to exist, it's not enough that the character be evil, but we must experience the emotional weight of their acts. That requires some form of context, such as seeing the world that they operate in, the reactions of other characters to their deeds, and so on. In other words, a complete fictional work.
This song is literally about the comic book character. If that character is already listed as a CM, then listing the song separately is redundant. If the character is not a CM because of some context or mitigating facts, then this fanwork is doing exactly what we said is not allowed: altering the original just to make them seem more heinous.
Edited by Fighteer on Oct 1st 2020 at 4:15:56 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Well, real life gets into their heads, but let's take my Joker. It either combines his acts or makes new ones; the only one I know for sure's from the canon Joker is killing Robin.
More debatable, but one I think can still count, is my Frieza.
A lot of the fictional ones are concept albums in of their own. Beast in Black/Battle Beast reconstruct the Berserk narrative quite well to name one.
That said, Kingslayer by Seven Kingdoms cna likely be cut
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I am not sure. The song says stuff that happened, but gives enough context that you don't need to know the work before hand. For instance I know next to nothing about the actual comics Carnage, but I could get a read on what happened. However I don't know if it is different enough. And as the one who did Carnage I really am fine with cutting him or the other Hip Hop Comics ones if the thread decides.
Edited by Bullman on Oct 1st 2020 at 3:18:32 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Agreed with cutting Kingslayer.
Yeah, BB Griffith keeps. There's definitely enough there.
Lost in Space
Honestly the whole Hip Hop Comics thing looks like it's not meant to be taken seriously. It'd be like us pointing to DEATH BATTLE! and calling its depiction of, say, Frieza, a CM. Not. Enough. Context.
Or perhaps more aptly, using Epic Rap Battles of History to mine standalone CM examples. No.
Edited by Fighteer on Oct 1st 2020 at 4:19:16 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Alright, I think I'm ready to submit my own writeup for Pathfinder.
- Agents Of Edgewatch: Hendrid Pratchett is the sadistic patron of the Dreaming Palace. Cruel and sadistic even as a child, Pratchett is responsible for numerous horrific murders throughout the Inner Sea Region, with his own parents having been his first victims. After settling down in Absalom, he began kidnapping, torturing and killing the customers of his inn, keeping them in secret dungeons and driving them to madness and despair. When the player characters investigate the Dreaming Palace, they discover that Pratchett often disposes of his victims' bodies by eating them, and has created a ghastly undead monster by reanimating two preteens that he murdered himself.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Please add here.
I guess it'll go at the end of the Pathfinder page?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Yeah, Agents of Edgewatch is the latest
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Again I am fine with cutting the Hip Hop Comics ones. I mean if they have to go they have to go.
Edited by Bullman on Oct 1st 2020 at 3:33:26 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Taking a look...we should check some of the Bathory ones. Ones I think can keep at a glance
- Randy Newman's "That's why I love Mankind" characterizes God enough with the requisite atrocity.
- Kamelot's Bathory as I've said, is an extended over 10 minute song where Elizabeth begins to detail her fears of growing old, processing as the song grows more intense, into mass murder and torture. More than enough.
- The Nyarlathoteps are likewise fine, I think. There's an extended narrative, context and more there.
- Zargothrax from gloryhammer is going nowhere. This is an original story told over three epics, with Zargothrax having extended monologues with an actor/band member dedicated to portraying him.
- Nobody goes anywhere from Rhapsody of Fire's song. Likewise, thee are just epic fantasy sagas told in song.
- Blind Guardian' Morgoth is fine as well. He gets entire songs from his POV, is characterized differently from the Silmarillion, and it's one extended concept album.
- Queenscryche's Doctor X has a story told over two concept albums. Easy pass.
Cut Maxim the Hormone's Freeza, though.
Yeah, that Frieza can go.
I can corroborate that Morgoth can stay and Zargothrax can definitely stay.
Lost in Space
Agreed that long-form works (concept albums and whatnot) can establish enough internal context to be judged on their own merits.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Regarding Music, I'd say Anthrax!Hitler and Saboton!Hitler are no gos. They describe him in an extremely out of focus zilch character third person light and thus veer extremely close to crossing the real life threshold.
Karadzic can stay, it's sung from his personality.
Frieza from "F", I think should also go, it's a song about mass atrocities with little about Frieza's personality shining through and reads as a summary of DBZ at most that gives no new crimes from the actual Frieza.
Edited by xie323 on Oct 1st 2020 at 1:47:27 AM
That Carnage song seems like it only has Offscreen Villainy.
In fact, I think this is the big problem with many of these song examples: The deeds are so short and undetailed that they, effectively, don't happen in the story and thus qualify as Offscreen Villainy.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Showtime!
I'd be fine with cutting all the hip hop comics ones, tbh
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
Accept!Jim Jones can stay? It's not his POV but from the point of view of a survivor.
Rock'n'roll never dies!
Well is it literally just "I survived Jim Jones, here's what he did"?
Lizzid people!
That one's more about the narrator escaping Jonestown while the mass suicides occur.
Edited by AustinDR on Oct 1st 2020 at 1:56:48 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Again I am totally fine with cutting the Hip Hop Comics ones. I also am going to trust Lighty's judgement on the others, like Frieza.
Sidenote. Did we ever decide on rather to the Dayshift at Freddy's image for Fan Games?
Edited by Bullman on Oct 1st 2020 at 4:01:44 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'm biased, but I see no reason why Hip-Hop Comics Joker should go.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Draftsman of Doom
I would like to suggest a cut based on the new criteria, Metallica's Phantom Lord.
Your bodies waiting for his whips The taste of leather on your lips
Hear the cry of war louder than before With his sword in hand to control the land
Crushing metal strikes on this frightening night Fall onto your knees for the phantom lord
Victims falling under chains you hear them crying death pains
The fists of terrors breaking through now there's nothing you can do
Hear the cry of war louder than before With his sword in hand to control the land
Crushing metal strikes on this frightening night Fall onto your knees for the phantom lord
The leather armies have prevailed the phantom lord has never failed
Smoke is lifting from the ground the rising volume metal sound
Hear the cry of war louder than before With his sword in hand to control the land
Crushing metal strikes on this frightening night Fall onto your knees for the phantom lord
Fall to your knees And bow to the phantom lord
I mean...we do get an idea that the phantom lord is a power hungry warmonger, and that he desires the submission of everyone to his will, but we do not have an explicit body count, and the narrative is almost entirely about his campaign of conquest. Also, his motives are not explored past his ambition and ego.
Great song, epic rocking, badass character, but I don't know if he still makes the cut. Thoughts?
Edited by SkyCat32 on Oct 1st 2020 at 5:05:39 AM
Feels good, don't it?
I'm curious about these POV songs. Are they embellishing on events depicted already in other works? If so, they aren't separable from those works.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"