During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Mm...so Envy would count in Brotherhood if he didn't have a pitying death. But he doesn't count here because the 2003 version made several other characters ridiculously vile and skyrocketed the heinous standard.
Yeah, I'm leaning towards a cut here.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
I'm fine with cutting 2003!Envy.
The thing with Arakawa is she tends to like her villains quite three dimensional. Other than the minor Tucker and gold-toothed Doctor, Father is about as morally complex as a CM can get. The 2003 went the opposite direction and had fun with a lot of moustache twirlers, unfortunately for this trope a lot written to be nasty kinda cannibalize each other thanks to what they do to the heinous standard.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Sure to the Himmler pony.
And I'm fine cutting Envy. I mean, when you've got Dante; a President Evil; a Mad Bomber Psycho for Hire; a Serial Killer Psycho for Hire; and an omnicidal Nazi lady...
Edited by ACW on Aug 26th 2020 at 11:04:19 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
@43: Ah yes I heard about that. In brotherhood/manga, the bad guys tend to be of varying mortality from pure evil to sympathetic or cases like kimblee where they have odd mortality. 2003 villains are usually totally evil or sympathetic with zero middle ground between the two
Edit : ![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Hell Barry sounds worse even for the Seria Killer Psycho for Hire niche we'll having less resources.
Edited by miraculous on Aug 26th 2020 at 8:07:37 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Wingenberg. Cut Envy.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
The manga very much follows "People aren't wholly one thing" for the most part, with even Father choosing to ignore or remove his redeeming qualities, rather than never having them. As you said, this version very much pulls a hard line between sympathetic bad guys and complete bastards. I don't really like any of the characters that were compressed into CMs anyways so I'm not too upset to bring this one up.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Fun fact: Manga!Envy is the most popular homunculus amongst fans.
Edited by 43110 on Aug 26th 2020 at 11:16:27 AM
Ultimate Moral Compass
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Wingenberg and Charles "Chuck" Ward.
Yeah, cut Envy. Doesn't do too much to stand out from this show, even with his resources. Fun fact, I actually got to meet Envy's English VA, and she said that she prefers Brotherhood!Envy more... because she got paid more.
"No running in the halls!"
Showtime!
Cut 2003 Envy
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
Yeah that version of Envy’s just kind of... ehhhh
I do prefer more complex villains (mainly magnificent bastards), and the 2003 just kinda dumbed things down.
Were also gonna have to nix the image on the images page.
Edited by nwotyzal on Aug 26th 2020 at 8:33:37 AM
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Envy
Side note that since I play HOI 4 mods, this difference between with regards to how FMA Manga and Brotherhood's villains are characterized vs. the 2003 anime reminds me to some extent of the contrast between The New Order Last Days Of Europe and Thousand-Week Reich in characterizing it's villains.
For instance, the various villainous characters and Nazis in TNO have a degree of Hidden depths or redeeming qualities or are ultimately very pathetic, while all our C Ms thus far from that work are rather mustache twirling, the vast majority of characters are not, and I think we're approaching a situation where we might have more M Bs then C Ms from TNO when I finish the MB effortposts.
TWR by contrast, the villains are much more mustache twirling. For instance, their version of Albert Speer is a fanatical Nazi seeking to perfect the slave system rather than replace it, while TNO!Speer is a scumbag, but is more of an opportunist fascist that has some nuance in him than a full on genocidal maniac, while the leader of the militarists in TWR is far more willing to drown the world in blood, whereas Goering is just a meat puppet for a radical group of officers.
Part of the reason that TWR is written as a historical document or historical account transfigured into a mod, while TNO is more of a story with each character's historical persona being used more as an archetype that can go in a differing directions.
Edited by xie323 on Aug 26th 2020 at 8:38:20 AM
Just to kinda lay it out a bit:
- Dante: Comes up with the plan to pull the strings behind Amestris for war in the hopes a Philosopher's Stone will be made;
- Pride/Bradley: Oversees the running of the Amestrian military, orders multiple genocides, strangles his kid to death as one final flourish;
- Kimblee: Took racist glee in the Ishbalan genocide (thanks for ruining my favourite character), takes the chance to repeat it again under Bradley and Archer;
- Barry: Goes from joke character to misogynistic Serial Killer, after being given his armoured body joins up with terrorists to keep killing
- Grand: As I said, looks over Lab 5, doesn't count but was overseeing the human experimentation;
- Archer: Given direct supervision over Kimblee, aids in Bradley's attempt to wipe out a city of Ishbalan refugees, tells Mustang after they quash his rebellion they'll see the world covered in war... again doesn't count for reasons I've given;
- Envy: Personal but no widespread crimes for a powerful Homunculus, the control of the military is only slight manipulations on their part, with Pride controlling it and Sloth/Juliet Douglas having official power. Role in mass conflict far too diluted with Dante and Pride about.
Yeah...
The wifi here sucks
Cut Envy. Correct me if I'm wrong but did he kill the anime version of Yoki? I have a really vivid memory of him shooting Yoki in order to cause some conflict with a foreign group but I'm assuming this is wrong.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Negative, that was Lust. On that note, she, while much more sympathetic, is onboard with a lot of the nasty things Envy attempts: just as much goading Ed into performing alchemy on the Lab 5 prisoners to make a stone, acts as The Heavy in a lot of Dante's nasty manipulations, etc.
Edited by 43110 on Aug 26th 2020 at 11:33:28 AM
to Sir Humphrey Pengallen, General Charles "Chuck" Ward, and Edler von Wingenberg.
to Envy.
Goku Black
Would everyone cool with this for the image links. Prime minister Ruthven explains his master Draculas takeover
from Anno Dracula : Seven days of mayhem .
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
See if you can just get the bottom left panel.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
Sure.
here
◊
While we're on the subject of images, I think I have a picture
◊ of 2003!Solf that might work.
Laid out like this, I agree. Envy has the nastiest personality, which is likely how he stayed up so long, but his deeds are comparatively nowhere near as awful as the manga version where he would've kept without his final moments.
My own bias against the flattened 2003 CMs aside, I think the Pride one we've got now is good. Wouldn't mind a better quote than the Barry one though.
Wait... I thought we decided the kind of nasty, personal evil Envy represents added to their heinousness.
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Aug 26th 2020 at 9:18:04 AM
Huh? No, that just makes his personality worse. If he was a low level villain with personal crimes that would be fine but he's arguably the most powerful Homunculus and both Barry and Kimblee outdo him on that front with less to work with.
The problem is Envy's personal nastiness isn't balance with enough deeds.
And a lot of baddies get very personal in FMA, Envy isn't unique there. Personal villainy is for a guy like Fernand from the Count of Monte Cristo film whose deeds are borderline but who is so repulsive and personal in how he conducts his villainy.
Edited by Lightysnake on Aug 26th 2020 at 9:21:17 AM
Yes to Pengallen and something I'd like to talk about... from 2003 FMA:
Envy's got absolutely nothing in redeeming qualities taken from his original version, that's true and he's a nasty prick, still with the visceral punch of his murder of Maes Hughes while taking the form of his wife. That said... the 2003 version is steep for nasty villains: Envy's a powerful Homunculus and his bodycount is relatively low in comparison to the likes of Kimblee or even this version of Barry, the former of whom seemed to be the number one hit guy in the Ishbalan massacre and the latter a serial killer turned thrill-killer mercenary.
His MO of looking like a loved one before killing is nasty but again, this version is full of horrible villains. Basque Grand is the operations director of the Fifth Laboratory, which uses condemned prisoners to create soul-bound suits of armour as guards or kills them to make Philosopher's Stones... he fails the standard. Frank Archer is an ambitious and vicious military man who assigns Kimblee and Shou Tucker to commit war crimes aplenty, hungers for combat and states his desire to see the world covered in war... he fails the standard thanks to the likes of Pride heading the military and Kimblee taking the Sociopathic Soldier niche.
The only thing I can really see saving him is being in on the full details of Dante's plan means he's onboard with her intent to force a desperate alchemist to create a Philosopher's Stone due to the conflict they bring... okay but that just makes him apathetic to the fallout. She's the one who came up with the plan and Envy's not even her only Dragon... the other half, Pride, heads the military as Fuhrer King Bradley and is the one straight up ordering all the genocides and deaths (even boasting to Mustang he's "purified" Amestris in doing so in their final fight).
All in all, this series strips a litany of villains of their redeeming qualities and Envy's actually got his own crimes turned down, as this version wasn't responsible for shooting the child to spark the war in Ishbal. Totally hateable prick but those are pretty common here and I'm not sure he quite cuts it.