During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
A huge point of the series though is that demons aren't an evil race by nature. Younger Toguro is more or less proof of that. It's not being a demon that responsible for Elder Toguro being evil, it's having power that corrupted him
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Lizzid people!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
So? Just rewrite it.
I would cut it.
Lizzid people!
RE: Samuel Blunt. I've read the story once, and I only remember him committing only a few murders or one, I'm not so sure. From Wonder Sausage, he murdered his wife over a dispute on money, and then ground her up, and mixed it with the meat in his sausages. He then sold the sausages to unsuspecting people, which in a way is similar to Sweeney Todd and the meat pies. He also later murders two more people onscreen, but I assume the rest of his murders were offscreen because the story briefly mentioned him making kids, adults, and animals disappear, but it was mostly offscreen. Overall, I think he committed three or four murders throughout the story.
edited 18th Feb '14 9:28:24 AM by AustinDR
- Complete Monster: Carlisle, from the little we see of him gives off this vibe, dissecting children while still alive in order to understand how they can use magic and to provide his family with superpowers, and starting a plague for no reason other then he can. Richard also gives this off, doubling as The Caligula. So much so, he manages to shock members of The Authority so much they rethink their own actions and step down from power (!).
The "from what little we see of him" makes me skeptical.
Yeah. I would cut the butcher. Those scary stories are more little campfire tales with no or minimal characterization at hand.
The Lynching one...depends on what's onscreen
I have a question about Akainu, from One Piece. I'm not arguing whether this guy fulfills the heinous standard, or the remorselessness standard, or anything. The man is a brutal murderer who kills his own men for running away from a fight, and he's more than willing to slaughter innocents if it means he can kill pirates in the name of "justice." Anyone who gets in the way of this "justice" is also fair game. However, when he was slated to become the new Fleet Admiral of the Marines, his comrade, Aokiji, refused to allow Akainu to take control and fought him for the title. Akainu won and had Aokiji at his mercy, but despite Aokiji opposing Akainu and his ideal justice (which as far as Akainu is concerned is a killing offense), Akainu spared him out of respect for the camaraderie they once had. Definitely a Pet the Dog moment, but is that enough to disqualify him as a CM?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Butcher cut.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
While a Pet the Dog moment is a disqualifier, the One Piece wiki description makes me wonder whether it is actually confirmed in-canon that Akainu spared the other one or whether it's inference.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Alright, fair enough. I was just curious if something like that counted. However, even with the grey area, I was under the impression that we needed to be sure about stuff like that before approving entries, and that when in doubt, disqualify, or am I wrong? Personally, I still think Akainu belongs because he's that much of a psycho, but I'm curious about policy.
edit: Looking at the wiki now, and at the chapter in question. Akainu almost definitely spared Aokiji, but it seems like Jimbe's conjecture that he did it out of respect and sympathy for his comrade (although, I can't think of any other reason for him to spare Aokiji).
edited 18th Feb '14 11:47:15 AM by Erivale
Huh, I just realized I never gave my thoughts on the Musical!Scar. Since he attempted to force himself on Nala, I vote to include the musical version.
@22022: That's been brought up before. Wasn't Akainu sparing Aokiji offscreen? And the motives for such an action were only speculated on by Jinbe? Jinbe seemed to think it was a Pet the Dog moment, but there's no actual evidence on Akainu's thoughts and reasoning on the affair. It could be we get a POV of Akainu who corroborates he spared Aokiji out of loyalty or comraderie but until such time I don't think it's enough to eliminate Akainu for the moment. EDIT: Ninja'd.
On another note, Reggie Ledoux from True Detective was added to the YMMV page without coming here first. Right away I'll say the guy doesn't count. Spoilers from episode five. Reggie Ledoux only appears in one scene, is revealed to have killed a little boy and kidnapped a little girl, and then gets executed by Hart instantly. He spends most of his time drugged out and rambling ominously, we know nothing about him or his motives, and he's not as heinous as the true Serial Killer, the Yellow King. Everyone okay if I cut him?
edited 18th Feb '14 11:48:13 AM by OccasionalExister
Alright, that's fair.
Yeah, cut him. I figured someone would add him.
@ Akainu: In the English translation at least, Jinbe definitely says that Sakazuki couldn't bear to kill someone who'd been his comrade for so long. Albeit, Jinbe wasn't there. I've always been against Sakazuki counting, actually, because as far as I can tell, every bit of his belief in "mass-murder for the sake of mankind" is honest.
@ Musical!Scar: You think we should have a Theatre section? If so, we could move the various Shakespeare villains there.
edited 18th Feb '14 12:11:24 PM by HamburgerTime
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
Trainspotting has others.
edited 18th Feb '14 12:15:26 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Does the woman he throws the glass at die, or is she just injured?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Don't know.
I'm tempted to cut all Trainspotting examples with a note pointing to this thread...
edited 18th Feb '14 12:30:42 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Train spotting...really? Yeah. Cut ASAP.
It's entirely within Akainu's character to considers traitorous comrade not worth killing and judging how he executed two deserters out of disgust for their shame, it's not impossible he felt letting Aokiji live was a punishment. We need to wait there
@22029: Its part of the Other Media page Hamburger Time.
edited 18th Feb '14 1:18:52 PM by randomtroper89
With regards to Akainu, I'd like to contrast him with Beckett to explain why, given their similar roles, I support the inclusion of the latter but not the former. With Akainu there has been no indication that he does not believe his shoot-on-sight policy vis a vis pirates and "enemies of the state" is genuinely helping the world. If it is revealed in the future that he simply joined the Navy to indulge his own sadism, i would support including him, but as of now every indication is that he genuinely believes he's helping. Beckett, by contrast, is plainly interested in his own pocketbook and nothing else; he goes after pirates because they hurt his profits and is willing to murder anyone, pirate or not, that would hurt his image (like the messenger to the King).
Does that make sense?
I think you're reading a bit into Akain there. There's no indication he thinks he's helping the world. He's imposing a brutal authoritarianism on the world where everyone who steps out of line is killed, in favor of protecting a corrupt government that has not only failed to protect the vast majority of its citizens, but allows corrupt aristocrats to do as they will and punishes dissent or threats with extreme disproportionate retribution.
Akainu has displayed precisely zero interest in helping anyone. His shoot on sight policy is not just for pirates. He's been shown to kill civilians and people whose only crime was running from a battle they couldn't possibly make a difference in. A CM can be a violent authoritarian looking to establish order as well as a sadistic anarchist looking to tear it down.
His speech when he blows up the refugee ship makes me think he does think it's Necessary Evil. Remember, he was talking to himself there and would have no reason to lie.
I concur that he's firmly on the Knight Templar side of the KT-WIE divide, but when you think about it, sympathetic characters such as Sengoku are arguably just as guilty of that sort of thing.
edited 18th Feb '14 3:13:08 PM by HamburgerTime
In the Anime and Manga subpage, perhaps Elder Toguro's entry should clarify that he was only a complete monster in the American version. In the Japanese version, it is implied that Elder Toguro used to be honorable as a human, but then became corrupted once becoming a demon. Corruption implies a lack of complete control over one's actions. Of course, all of this is only based on my (admittedly somewhat vague) recollection of Yu Yu Hakusho knowledge, so I could be forgetting some important details. I do believe wholeheartedly that the American version still qualifies, though, just as how in Harry Potter, the film version of Barty Crouch, Jr. qualifies, while the book version does not.
edited 18th Feb '14 8:13:37 AM by Pwnisher248