During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
"The Juice is Loose."
Yes to Quan Chi and Shinnok.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Question...are prequel comics distinct enough from their canon counterparts, where they already count?
The Draftsman of Doom
Abstain on Quan Shi and Shinnook.
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The first two, i say for sure yeah, as second one contradicts several events of the game (like Scorpion's role), like i explained in my EP of Shang Tsung and first one contains it's own lore, that was retconned by later games.
This one i take a shot, due to all main games prior Deadly Alliance lacking in plot, so it simply gives a more detail to Shinnok and Quan Chi taking over Edenia (with a lot of people dying), and as far as i'm aware actual Mortal Kombat 4 game doesn't do any of that.
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Mar 9th 2020 at 9:38:51 PM
I'm thinking this is more supplemental than worth full new entries entirely of their own...
Well, due to contradiction of the second comic (which is prologue to the second game) with the game, i considered it it's own thing (especially since they made up stuff, that got reintroduced in a different way in games). I even wrote a post about this thing before and got ignored, so i decided to give it a shot.
Minor differences in differing mediums don't qualify as entirely different continuities for me. In MK, even the games contradict each other.
If that's the case, I think they're worth entries of their own.
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Mar 9th 2020 at 11:46:15 AM
Differences are not so minor, when a character makes a turn in the prologue comic, that he only does in the end of the game, like Scorpion declaring himself protector of a younger Sub-Zero immediately in comic, when in actual game he is his full on enemy until the end of the game.
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Mar 9th 2020 at 9:51:28 PM
That's....exactly what I'd define as minor, especially in a flexible canon like MK which does retcons and changes all the time.
Goku Black
Isnt that pretty minor. It doesnt really have anything to do with the badguys deeds.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Shang Tsung blew up Shaolin Temple and personally killed all the people within (people, who raised and trained with Liu Kang). That is his unique deed in that comic.
More or less, due to original Arcade games so lacking in actual plot (not lore, i mean exactly plot), with all it being used is text intro and text endings, i thought these comics could stand out, as they give more context and feature more stuff happening.
Okay, if canon is so flexible, i may retract my EP's, if enough votes say for me to do so.
I do so, because i don't want to distract people much with this debate.
Especially if people now want to discuss PAMA.
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Mar 9th 2020 at 10:07:54 PM
Lizzid people!
Guess I'll go with a no on PAMA because of the brainwashing not being presented as that bad if the video is any indication.
The Draftsman of Doom
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Alright, I suppose I will try this. However, unlike my Legacy EPs, I am pretty ambivalent about this one.
What's the work?
Devotion is an indie first-person horror game by Red Candle. It was removed from Steam because it had a picture making fun of the Chinese president, but that is neither here nor there. It stars Du Feng Yu, a scriptwriter who is down on his days. He has a lovely daughter, Mei Shin. One day, while watching TV, he wakes up in his home to find it decrepit and Mei Shin missing, so he sets out to find her.
The Reveal is that Mei Shin was Dead All Along. And the killer is Feng Yu himself. But he's not the candidate. The one who manipulated him into doing so is our candidate.
Who is Mentor Heuh? What does she do?
Mentor Heuh is the Big Bad. She is the leader of the Cigu Guanyin cult, a Scam Religion, and has been using it to con people out of money, brainwashing them into following her every word. Among her acts as leader, she tricked a guy with cancer into foregoing chemotherapy in favor of giving her money and following her rituals. The father died, and while we never see the death onscreen, we do hear a recording of his despairing son confronting Heuh and being extremely furious with her for tricking him and basically killing his father (the despair in his voice is, I think, evidence enough).
Most notably, the protagonist, Feng Yu, has mental issues, but initially tried his best to be a loving father. Heuh takes advantage of him, drawing him into her cult, and from what we see and hear, she intentionally exacerbates his Sanity Slippage. Mei Shin, his daughter, seems to have inherited his mental illness, but he refuses to believe that his daughter is a lunatic, as he puts it. She turns Feng Yu against his wife, telling him she has been possessed by evil spirits, and he begins beating her in response.
The big one is when she has Feng do a ritual to cure Mei Shin. Said ritual involves Feng Yu cutting/bloodletting himself, then sticking Mei Shin in a bathtub with snake wine for seven whole days, and the whole time Heuh intentionally dissuades Feng Yu from saving Mei Shin, outright telling him that the ritual can sometimes take a few days and he should leave her in the tub. She dies, and Feng Yu snaps.
Heinousness?
Sets it for the work itself. She gets two people killed, one of whom is a child who died a Cruel and Unusual Death, and it is indicated to be no accident- she knew her rituals would result in death but simply never cared about anything but money. She also drove a man to insanity and Domestic Abuse just to secure his devotion. While she is not solely responsible for his insanity, she exacerbated it to unmanageable levels. Basically the whole game is him wandering through a hell created by his own mind because of what she manipulated him into doing. She is also indicated to have more victims of the rituals and general money-grubbing.
The main issue I have is whether this is enough to pass the baseline.
Mitigating Qualities?
She is that The Voice candidate I was asking about. Though we do not see her, we hear her, on both the recordings and talking to Feng Yu himself on the phone and such. We get a clear sense of personality- she likes to portray herself as this wise, sagely lady, with a voice not unlike one a Cool Old Lady would use. She always keeps her cool even when confronted with uneasy or even angry followers. Of course, this is but a Wise Old Folk Façade. So, unlike Tokimassa, Heuh has a demonstrated personality.
Other than that, no sympathetic qualities whatsoever.
Verdict?
While definitely a grade A Hate Sink, I do wonder if she can be said to pass the baseline standard. In case you want to see for yourself, here is a two-hour playthrough. That being said, I understand if she gets downvoted.
Edited by MasterN on Mar 9th 2020 at 12:28:00 PM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
The Draftsman of Doom
Leaning yes to Mentor, if only because her actions set a pattern, her methods are extremely cruel, and she is suggested to have more victims.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Mar 9th 2020 at 3:47:27 PM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Shang Tsung, Deimos, Apollo, Malakai and Haizum.
Also, just finished Castlevania Season 3. It was awesome. PM me for details about any potential keepers.
Goku Black
Anyway my final shakespeare vs cthulhu example. From the short story "Once more unto the breach" by C L Werner.
Who is Vashtar ?
Anyway in an adaption of Henry VI, Henry is facing off against Charles d'Alcen and is worried his forces will be completely annihilated. Before the battle commences, a strange man named Vashtar wonders into his camp and makes his presence known. Vashtar reveals himself as druidic priest and worshipper of Yog-Sotoh, Vashtar plays to Henry's fears that his men will be massacred by making him think that should he help him, he'll help defeat the army. Vashtar reveals he gains his power through human sacrice often of children and that requires a few of Henry's peasntry (possibly their kids. story doesnt seem to confirm either way) as a way to complete his ritual. Henry backed into a corner reluctantly agrees.
Anyway the big battle has begun, the forces converge. Only for Vashtar to unleash the tendrils of Yog-Sotoh on the french army, cuasing them to wreath and die in agony. Henry in the horror relaises that Vashtar has played them, he has no intention of stopping and plans to have his master destroy the entire planet. He makes a truce with Charles to have their armies work together and take on the tentcales. However its not making a dent, so they figurre that killing vashtar will put and end to this, using an arrow to hit him in the chest, as the portal closes Yog-Sotoh trasnforms and horffically mutilaites Vashtar's dying form before moving back into the portal for good.
Mitigating factors?
He's just a psycho fanatic and old one worshiper out to bring the end of the world. Henry may have agreed to let him have a sacrfice or two but it was reluctanlty to save his men....and Vashtar used that as a pretence for world ending.
Heinous standard?
Human sacrficre, murder of children, trying to destroy the world through agonising Body Horror tentacles. Yeah pass
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I'll read the You EP and cast a vote soon once I've watched the show. Everyone in my house has been telling me I should watch it (they're all caught up right now). I'll possibly get to The Invisible Man by Friday.
Based on the EP, to Vashtar.
13 for The Fallen now you say? Disregard my vote on The Fallen though. Didn't get to read the EP.
Max von Sydow was Ming in the original movie (which I haven't seen yet)? Good God. God rest to him regardless though.
@k4 Was also Lor San Tekka, one of the first onscreen victims of Kylo Ren.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Mar 9th 2020 at 2:25:16 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
Self-Declared King of Everything
Vashtar.
to Vashtar.
to Vashtar
Vashtar and Mentor Heuh (just about on the latter)
Changing to ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
for PAMA I'm afraid.
My last Efforpost, connected to comics based on Mortal Kombat franchise
I've talked about comic prequels from Midway to original Arcade Mortal Kombat games, we covered prequels to first two games, now i cover the prequel to Mortal Kombat 4.
I'm again going to bring two other popular villains from the franchise.
Who are Quan Chi and Shinnok?
A powerful necromancer and a fallen Elder God, who decided to unite to pursue their own quests for power, the duo entered into an alliance sometime before the comic. As Edenia, recently freed from Shao Kahn, tries to rid of his corruption, and bring peace to the realm, led
by the queen Sindel and her daughter Kitana, Quan Chi disguised
himself as a citizen from another realm, managed to enter Sindel's castle (with the help of a traitor Tanya) and lies to Sindel that he escaped from another realm, called Treche, which is ruled by a tyrant and uses it to trick
Sindel into taking and staring at his magic orb, allowing
Shinnok and his demon army to invade
Edenia and murder all the royal guards. As Quan Chi reveals himself and discusses Shinnok's goals with Shinnok himself, they continue
to conquer the realm. As Earthrealm champions catch up that something is going on, as they save god of wind
from Shinnok's demons (as Shinnok invaded
the realm of the gods), they arrive
to Edenia, seeing it transformed into a nightmarish realm full of skeletons of people
, who recently died there at the hands of Quan Chi and Shinnok's demons.
Heinousness?
For a single issue (a little more than 20 pages), I think they do enough. They invade a realm and turn it into a nightmarish world, which is shown to be worse than what Shao Kahn has done to it. The final page shows Quan Chi atop of a lot of skeletons (with all signs that it is people, who we recently murdered during invasion), indicating that many people were murdered by Quan Chi and Shinnok in incredibly short time (as Earthrealm champions arrived almost immediately after Quan Chi and Shinnok started their full blown invasion).
Mitigating Qualities?
None. It is clear that both only seek their own goals and ally with each other due to necessity.
Conclusion?
What do you think?