During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Zennon
Huh quite the step up. Isn't he just Satan's Goon usually.
Also bill
Edited by miraculous on Feb 16th 2020 at 11:59:52 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yes to Zennon.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Yikes...sorry to hear that, Klavice. Hope she gets better.
Edited by falcontalons on Feb 16th 2020 at 12:02:26 PM
So anyway, I have some news. Apparently my mom has a type of heart failure which has made me extremely depressed as of late. Yes it can be cured but it's not less worrisome.
Yes to Bill (not Cipher), Monk!Moriarty, Zennon amd throw me in as a yes for Gustav.
Edited by Klavice on Feb 16th 2020 at 12:01:56 PM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Satan's right hand actually.
Hope everything will turn well.
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Feb 16th 2020 at 11:04:33 PM
"The Juice is Loose."
Yes to Bill and Zennon.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Bill and Zennon. Hope all turns out well.
Edited by CloisterTheStupid on Feb 16th 2020 at 8:12:59 PM
The Timeless One
Zennon
I'm very sorry about your Mom, Klavice. Take care.
"I am the lord of Purity, who tolerates no deviation." My first online story
"The Juice is Loose."
@Klavice: Sorry to hear about your mom. Take care.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Goku Black
After. The manga came before right?
Plus this is the most disconnected part of the franchise so putting it on top would be odd.
Also take care klavice. Sorry to hear about that.
Edited by miraculous on Feb 16th 2020 at 12:19:53 PM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Manga came, according to Wikipedia, only a month before.
Should the Demon Lord Dante entries go in the tree, or are they not connected enough?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Demon Lord Dante was something of a "Proto Devilman" according to Go Nagai himself.
The Draftsman of Doom
Bill and Zenon. Abstain on Gustav.
Sorry about your mom, Klavice.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Feb 16th 2020 at 4:55:24 AM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
Brother Moriarty, Bill and Zenon. I'm still keeping my to Gustav.
I'm sorry to hear that Klavice. I hope your mom gets better.
Edited by G-Editor on Feb 16th 2020 at 10:54:17 AM
Zennon and Bill.
to Bill and Zennon.
Hope your mom feels better, Klavice.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Self-Declared King of Everything
to Bill and Z.
Bill and Zennon.
Take all the time you need, Klavice. Hoping your mum pulls through and sending you best wishes for some Sweet Dreams Fuel
Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Having seen the entire anime myself, I wonder if Zenon is too much of a case of Orcus on His Throne. He never really does anything on his own- he has his minions do everything for him. Just saying. I might upvote if someone can give a counterargument.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Goku Black
How uh much of one is he.....
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Apologies for this being a response to a few pages ago, but this thread sometimes moves fast, and I tend to lurk here more than I post:
I'm fine with supporting Conomor as a CM, but he'll be Breton mythology, not Welsh. The Welsh figure is Cynfawr and, while the names are linguistically connected, they are different figures and the stories aren't connected — although it is easy to make that mistake, and they commonly have been in the past. There's a Cornish story that gets conflated with them, too (a more complicated situation here because the Breton story does have Cornish connections).
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Goku Black
Could Cynfawr count too ?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Anyway, finished rewatching Mai-Otome. To the one who said that Nagi only does bog-standard villainy, you really need to rewatch the show, because his villainy is NOT standard, as I will now show.
What's the work?
Mai-Otome is an anime that is a sequel/AU to Mai Hime. It stars Arika Yumemiya, who goes to Garderobe Academy to become an Otome- the version of Magical Girls who are contracted to fight wars in place of traditional soldiers. She and her friends, Nina Wang and Erstin Ho (yes, I know), and Queen Mashiro must save the Kingdom of Windbloom from a plot to take it over.
The ones behind said plot?
Who are Grand Duke Nagi Di Artai and John Smith II? What do they do?
The Big Bad ruler of the Artai Principality and the Evil Genius head of the terrorist group Schwarz, respectively.
At first, Nagi befriends Arika and seems to be a goofball rather than a villain. That changes when he secretly takes over Mashiro's castle, and he and Smith attack a stadium during an important competition using an energy cannon in the castle, injuring many innocent people. Schwarz invades Windbloom, after which the Artai forces liberate the Kingdom and place it under their control. Nagi and Smith then force Erstin, who was actually a spy raised by them, to attack Arika. Nagi also manages to corrupt Nina, turning her into a Dark Magical Girl by revealing that essentially her whole life has been a lie, as she was the true heir to Windbloom but never knew it, her own adopted father (Sergey Wang, the Noble Top Enforcer of Nagi) lied to her to keep her safe, Erstin was a traitor, and such. Nagi then has Nina try to kill Arika, but Erstin makes a Heroic Sacrifice to save her, getting herself killed, to which Smith and Nagi only show amusement.
The first thing Nagi and Smith do upon coming into power is order all the poor people living in the slums to evacuate, destroying their straw homes and exiling them to the desert. The two then use the corpse of Lena Sayers, an ancient hero and mother of Arika, to create the armor for the Valkyries, Otome that answer only to Nagi, and make it so that they must obey his orders under pain of electric shock should they refuse.
Then comes the really wicked part- Nagi and Smith order Nina to use the Harmonium, an ancient Doomsday Device, to destroy cities around the world- Nina's tearful apologies to Sergey confirm that tons, if not hundreds, of innocent people died as a result, something which brings Nina to tears- but she cannot disobey Nagi, for he controls her now. It is here that the ultimate plan of the two men is revealed- to destroy the Otome system and force the planet into a world war, in which they will surface victorious.
When Sergey realizes all this, he turns against them. John Smith tries to shoot Sergey, but Sergey is faster and shoots him instead. Nagi then shoots Sergey and hooks him up to the Harmonium, using his life to further extort Nina into doing what he wants- if she disobeys him, her dear father dies. When the heroes come to stop him, he tries to use the cannon and his own army of monsters (called Slaves) to destroy Garderobe Academy and kill them all.
Ultimately, Arika succeeds in destroying most of his army and ruining his plans- to which he decides to order Nina and the remaining Slaves to wipe out the Kingdom of Windbloom and kill everyone in it, purely out of spite. And when the Harmonium malfunctions and threatens to destroy the entire world, Nagi simply smiles, content to drag everyone down with him. Luckily, Arika stops the machine and turns Nina good again, and Nagi is arrested.
Heinousness?
Nagi is the Big Bad, so he sets it for the series. As compared to the Obsidian Lord? The series does not take place in the same world as Hime (I think), but even if it does, somehow, Nagi still raised a girl to be a terrorist, pulled off a coup and sent all the poor people to die in the desert (a child actually dies as a result), enslaved Otomes to work for him, forced Nina to kill entire cities full of people, nearly killed his right-hand man Sergey, then finally tried to wipe out Windbloom and even the whole planet just because he got pissy that he lost. As for John Smith, he helps him all the way until his death, so they share their evil actions.
In regards to other villains:
Yuna from Mai-Otome Zwei is an ancient super-weapon that tries to destroy the planet, however it does not count due to being a Generic Doomsday Villain who lacks any lines.
The origins John Smith from Mai-Otome 0~S.ifr~ also tries to cause worldwide war, but within the OVA itself he mostly just engages in standard villainy and terrorism. At least, that is my view- if anyone wants to watch it for themselves and see if he qualifies, please feel free to do so.
Point is, Nagi and Smith threaten the world and manage to kill a slew of innocent people, something which neither Yuna or John Smith I are seen doing. They also are much more personal about it with their manipulations.
Mitigating Qualities?
Duke Nagi? Unlike Nagi Homura, none. Duke Nagi claims that he wants to get rid of the oppressive Otome system for the good of the Otomes, but he reveals in the penultimate episode that his real aim is to make everyone suffer the pain of war because he hates humanity or something. Him being willing to doom the whole planet to die proves he does not give a shit about the Otomes behind being tools to him. Also, Miyu finds a way to free the Otomes non-violently, further discrediting Nagi. Unlike Nagi Homura, who actually showed himself to truly like Mashiro Kazahana, Nagi Di Artai hates Mashiro Windbloom and wants to force her to bow to him. He does help the Otomes save the planet from Yuna in Mai-Otome Zwei, but only to save his own ass.
John Smith II? He, as a child, works under John Smith I in Mai-Otome 0~S.ifr~ and is fully complicit in aiding his predecessor try to spark worldwide war, and joins Nagi because they both share the same twisted views. So no, John Smith II has no true mitigating qualities either.
Verdict?
Easy pair of keeps, and my true first joint candidate.
Edited by MasterN on Feb 16th 2020 at 3:04:25 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Okay, after failure to find a monster in Violence Jack, I decided to look into a more lighthearted version of the franchise
What's the work?
Devilman by Toei
(a company, best known for Kamen Rider and Super Sentai) is an old anime series from 1972, which run for 39 episodes and loosely based on Devilman manga but reformatted to fit in "monster of the week" style of plot. Go Nagai helped with its production. Making great differences in the plot and premise, the anime has us follow a demon, who literally called Devilman (or Debiru Man, depending on translation), who possessed the body of Akira, after the human boy died, by the orders of the leader of Demon Tribe Zennon, and taken his place in human world, as Zennon intended for him to spread chaos and destruction over human population. Devilman instead falled in love with Miki and growed to care for her family, resulting in him abandoning his original goal and try to live with his new family. Angry Zennon then swears to take revenge on Devilman and continuously sends his demons to cause death and destruction over humanity.
My candidate ofcourse is Zennon himself.
Who is Zennon
?
A king of Demon Tribe, Zennon hates humanity and wishes to exterminate them, so he and his demons could rule the Earth. Being introduced by ordering Devilman and two other demons to fight to the death for the right to control the body of Akira Fudo (who recently died), Zennon was angry when Devilman refuses to follow his commands on spreading chaos among humanity. Furious with such defiance, Zennon starts sending his demon minions to kill as many humans as they can and destroy Devilman. Soon he starts sending his Demon Generals
to command the demons in their slaughter of humanity and preparations of conquering the Earth. Since many of his demons were sended just to kill Devilman and kill several people and he himself can't or won't break free from his "Ice Prison" (where he and most of the demons reside, as they were frozen and trapped there due to the Ice Age in the ancient times), here are notable atrocities committed on his orders:
Ordering his first General Zannin to send the demon Bedora to cause chaos among humans, resulting in Bedora taking control over various humans and causing catastrophes to happen, like train full of people crashing
Sending Mermane to kill Devilman, resulting in her flooding the town, where Devilman was
Sending several of his demons (each got his own episode) to cause destruction all over the city, resulting in deaths of countless people, as demons blew up bridges and set buildings on fire
Having Zannin to fly on the gigantic lizard monster and destroy parts of the town, where Devilman lived
When Zannin died, Zennon just replaced him with another General, Muzan, and orders him to kill as many humans as he can, resulting in Muzan summoning Psycho Jenny to drown dozens of children and then sending Draw
to try and devour all humanity. Also, he sended Bela to kill and zombify an entire Tibet village, so she could expand demon territory.
Later when Muzan was killed by Devilman, Zennon replaced him with Demon Marshal Lacock and orders her to kill off many humans, resulting in her sending various demons to kill Devilman, with one notable example being a demon, who kidnapped people's heads, while keeping them alive, so he could simply torture them by tipping their eyes, nose or ears for fun.
In the final episodes, after Devilman killed Lacock, Zennon simply takes command himself, ordering his demons to erupt volcano near the city, killing countless people and having another one of his demons to control moon's gravity, flooding the city and resulting in building, trains and planes full of people being sucked into space and destroyed.
In the grand finale, Zennon send his demon God
to spread disasters across the Earth to kill off humanity, but he was also killed by Devilman and the series ends with Zennon plotting his revenge
Heinousness?
Although he only gives orders and never comes out into the open himself, Zennon still plots annihilation of humanity and all life on Earth and is responsible for deaths of thousands as all actions of the demons connected to him and committed on his orders.
Mitigating Qualities?
None. He shows lack of care to his demons dying from Devilman's hands and simply wants to conquer the Earth for himself. Demons here also have agency, as there were a demon brother and sister in one episode, who cared for one another and Devilman himself is a demon who grows to love and care for some people.
Conclusion?
I will say Yes.