During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
A 20th Century Boy
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Robotnik and Snively.
to Snively and Robotnik. Think this makes four for the latter.
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Jan 22nd 2020 at 8:14:48 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Snively.
The FE makes me pause a bit, but I'll give a slightly more hesitant yes to Robotnik.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yeah. This one, SatAM one, Archie Comic one (original), a fan work one.
Edited by ACW on Jan 22nd 2020 at 11:28:32 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
For the quotes...I dislike the third one from Kimetsu. It's too much...dialogue.
One other for right now, my final Achtung Cthulhu example from Assault on the Mountains of Madness: Matilda Griess.
Who is Griess?
Matilda Griess is a member of the Black Sun society...now in the Nazi ranks, Griess is realizing the end of the war is at hand and is in the frigid northern wastes, tunneling for a special Mythos weapon deep within the mountains...and she's found it.
Sending in a patrol of soldiers, upon they recover the information? Griess promptly has them executed to keep it to herself, for what she's discovered is a powerful sort of soul catcher, that she plans to activate with the fortunes of the Nazis fading. The Investigators are special agents sent in to stop this and the Black Su...Griess?
In a word, she begins feeding victims into the device, imprisoning their souls in perpetual agony within the device, and once it overflows, Griess intends to activate it, but also targetit, in a sort of Soul Storm. The end goals? The total extermination of all life on earth. First they will be driven insane, then agonizingly, their lives end as Griess spares only those loyal to the Nazis...or rather the Black Sun in specifically to allow for a total Nazi victory.
As the Investigators arrive, things are looking bad and griess is preparing in time. The heroes have to fight through the Nazi forces to reach Griess, as she begins to set off the weapon...now, at the end of the module, the heroes either kill Griess or drive her off, but the weapon is set off, causing horrific damage in the surrounding regions, driving many to madness and death.
....To be continued in Bye Bye Baby, a module that has last been mentioned in 2017 and with no sign since. Happy ending!
Mitigating Qualities?
honestly, while others get by on style and ruthless cruelty? None top Griess for body count in wanting to cause the apocalypse. Of dozens of evil Nazis and German sadists, Griess is the only one aiming for pure on omnicidal goals, save the pockets she and the Black Sun can dominate. Obertorff is a would-be god who plans to deploy Gugnir, Kammerstein is the mad scientit and Scraggle will handle Engel from Kontamination, but nobody beats Griess for far-reaching atrocity.
Conclusion?
And a keeper.
Edited by Lightysnake on Jan 22nd 2020 at 8:29:46 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Greiss.
So the Achtung! tree: Above the Pulp duo, like this?
Achtung! Cthulhu
- "Assault on the Mountains of Madness": Matilda Greiss
- "Kontamination": Engel
- "Three Kings" (part 1 of "Zero Point"): In a setting replete with insane Nazi mad scientists, few are as unrepentantly wicked as Dr. Graf Ernst von Kammerstein. The leader of an operation based near a town in occupied Czechoslovakia, Kammerstein murders then reanimates countless dozens in his laboratory for the purpose of creating unkillable super soldiers for Germany. Many are simply added to Kammerstein's ever-growing menagerie of mindless, shambling zombies that Kammerstein keeps locked up in a pen, and other failures literally fill a graveyard. Kammerstein shows a sinister predilection for children in his experiments, and when a local priest starts saving as many as he can from Kammerstein's wicked clutches, Kammerstein has a man suspected to be him captured and tortured to death. Utterly without scruples, Kammerstein is willing to use the innocents he hasn't already murdered as human hostages, and may even let the zombies spill out onto the surrounding town to kill everything in their path.
- "The Trellborg Monstrosities": Ludwig von Obertorf
Self-Declared King of Everything
Griess.
Goku Black
Greiss
Repeating my question. Anyone familiar with zones of thought. Also why does the trope page say Flesner has a Heel–Face Turn or is that not him??
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The Draftsman of Doom
to Dr. Robotnik and Snively, and Matilda Griess.
to Griess
Showtime!
to Griess and the first two quotes. The third one is a little unclear to me
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Matilda Griess.
Any more votes on the quotes?
The wifi here sucks
Griess Robotnik and Snivley
@ Lightysnake Omnicidal villains aren't uncommon in Zelda, Yuga and Majora try to outright destroy the word, and both Chancellor Cole and the Oracle villains are trying to release dangerous monsters which is treated with a similar level of weight as Girahim trying to free Demise.
Also, while the monsters are said to be extremely dangerous, it never comes off that way since we rarely see them being a threat to anyone besides Link and the game never loses its lighthearted tone. Honestly the game doesn't treat him reviving monsters with enough weight for me to consider him bad enough. Plus every Zelda villain creates monsters and the ones in Skyward Sword are only treated with slightly more weight than the monsters in the rest of the games, and that's mostly just an Informed Attribute
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Lizzid people!
I'd think the added touches of cruelty pushes him a bit over.
Here is my Avatar guy, i clarify the version of the game because it's one of those games that has multiple versions and each has its own unique plot.
James Cameron's Avatar: The Game (PS3, XBOX 360 and PC): Commander Karl Falco is one of the commanding officers of RDA army at the planet Pandora, who possesses a deep hatred of its native population, the Na'vi. Having his soldiers to perform repeated air strikes on Na'vi's homes, Falco immediately order Able Ryder to find a mole within his organization. In both Na'vi and RDA path, Falco starts a full on war with the Na'vi, wiping out their villages and burning down their forests. Seeking out the sacred Well of Souls, which is capable of controlling Pandora, Falco plans to use it to wipe out the Na'vi completely. Creating an Emulator of the First Voice, the only thing on Pandora which is capable of controlling Well of Souls, Falco goes rouge on RDA, killing Professor Monroe and trying to use the Emulator on Well of Souls himself, despite knowing that this could kill the entire planet, RDA people and himself included. When Able Ryder confronts him about this, Falco fully states that he doesn't care about the danger and fully willing to destroy all life on the planet, if it means he can kill all the Na'vi as well.
Also, while the monsters are said to be extremely dangerous, it never comes off that way since we rarely see them being a threat to anyone besides Link and the game never loses its lighthearted tone. Honestly the game doesn't treat him reviving monsters with enough weight for me to consider him bad enough. Plus every Zelda villain creates monsters and the ones in Skyward Sword are only treated with slightly more weight than the monsters in the rest of the games, and that's mostly just an Informed Attribute
Skyward Sword is lighthearted, but Ghirahim's never played for comedy. He and Demise are given appropriate weight...and Ghirahim has more touches of personal villainy in a franchise that now extends decades. I think that's enough.
Even that s'lightly more weight' does admit that, well, there's more to it....and like Is aid, throwing his men to die against Link is a unique level of nasty bad boss there.
The wifi here sucks
@Austin What added touches of cruelty, he mostly just boast about how he's going to kill Link which doesn't do anything for me in terms of heinousness. Also he doesn't attack Skyloft, all he does is send a tornado at Link and Zelda who are pretty far away from Skyloft at the time (to the point where you can't see Skyloft at all during that scene).
Edited by papyru30 on Jan 22nd 2020 at 10:24:26 AM
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Like the threats to Link to torture him, the ritual with Zelda, what he does with his own soldiers, things like that.
You're welcome to vote no.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
~Lightysnake: I am inclined to agree with you about Ghirahim.
As for the Enmu quote, how about shortening it to this:
- I am in a dream! Because... I will die by your own hand. I adored hearing the other demons' death cries. They thrilled me. I revel in the misery and suffering of others. I relive it in my dreams each night. Thank you for leaving me for last.—Enmu to Muzan, shorty before the latter recruits him, Demon Slayer: Kimetsu no Yaiba, Chapter 52 "Cruel and Heartless"
Edited by MasterN on Jan 22nd 2020 at 9:25:42 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
No, he's still just sounding grateufl to die because he's a sadomasochist
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Is being an Omnicidal Maniac THAT common in the franchise? I've not played the game, but it doesn't seem SO common that Demise can't count.
Or am I missing something? Even with Yuga and Majora, Cole, Malladus, Oracle, there are still plenty of other villains (I think?).
Edited by ACW on Jan 22nd 2020 at 12:27:22 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
How bout this, then:
- I adored hearing the other demons' death cries. They thrilled me. I revel in the misery and suffering of others. I relive it in my dreams each night.
Or would this be better in Sadist?
Also, are you fine with the other two quotes?
Edited by MasterN on Jan 22nd 2020 at 9:28:36 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
The wifi here sucks
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
The quote.
I think I've said everything that I can about Girahim, I really just don't think he stacks up to the rest of the series villains in terms of heinousness.
Edited by papyru30 on Jan 22nd 2020 at 10:32:44 AM
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Well, I thought the same for Damon Merrick compared to Mark Jefferson, but he was ruled to pass the standard anyway. (Granted, you were a dissenting opinion in that debate...)
