During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to the Marquis
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Sure to the Bluebeard expy.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Draftsman of Doom
to Marquis. ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Weir.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
to Marquis. And honestly? Vortex sounds like a for me.
Yes to the Marquis, no to Weir, but y'know...I can't vote on Vortex one way or the other and given the issues here I don't think he should be on either trope. This is a recurring problem, Klavice. Seriously recurring in how your effortposts leave out massive amounts of information or flat out distort them. This has been going back years now.
Cross-wired freak
Abstaining on Vortex
Listen to my podcast
Goku Black
Keeping my abstain on Vortex.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Gonna go with a no for Vortex in the hopes he stays off the trope pending a proper picture be painted.
The Draftsman of Doom
Actually, Vortex until all the information required for proper assessment is in place.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Dec 1st 2019 at 6:09:51 AM
Your friendly neighbourhood Spider-Man.
Goku Black
Ah screw it. Your right. I'll go with flat no.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I appreciate all of your input. I'd vote no on him too. I haven't been feeling well in the past 4 or 5 years. My memory's been getting worse and I just don't feel comfortable with any of my calls these days. I'm probably not going to propose anyone for MB or CM until I have a second opinion on them. I'll just sit back and vote on candidates as I see them.
Edited by Klavice on Dec 1st 2019 at 3:13:05 AM
to Marquis
to Weir
Okay, umm...in that case, Klavice, maybe you should see someone professionally rather than just tell us about it? Prefer you not take risks with your health and seek out professional opinions there, since I'm sure not qualified to do tht and I doubt anyone else here is.
Also yes to the Marquis.
"The Juice is Loose."
Yes to The Marquis.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
So... looks like Vortex is a no keep (for now?). Eh... honestly, I would hate to say this, but it sounds like, from what I have read, Vortex is just a poorly written villain. Shame if that is true, because AA Big Bads are usually really cool and fun to hate. Also was planning to play the Fan Translation of Dai, but my enthusiasm has been... killed, somewhat, by this whole mess.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Goku Black
Second ep from Bloody Chamber. We've done Torture Technian so let's try The Collector
From the short story the erl king which is based on well The Erl-King
W Ho is The Erl King
A monstrous green tree-person dude. The Erl King lives in the forest where he seems like this enchanting dude and nice guy. In reality he's a huge creeper. He charms women who enter the forest into conning to him where he then seduces or rapes them before branding them with his seering claws on their throat. Or after he's grown tired of them, after seducing them, he then does the whole hand on the throat thing and marks them. He then transforms them into songbirds who he keeps caged. Where they'll be miserable forever. Their voices silenced forever. With him having dozens of cages of them.
Anyway the protagonist is charmed by him to the point they sleep together before he starts to abuse her with her marked. She then realises that when he grows bored of her he intends to get rid off her like he normally does and turn her into another part of his collection. She though outwits him by well he's sleeping, strangling him to death with his own long hair which undies his spell and frees his victims.
Uh none given. He can think pretty human like. Avoiding blue and orange morality concerns..
We don't learn much about where he came from barring this :
''Even the homely wood blewits, that you cook like tripe, with milk and onions, and the egg-yolk yellow chanterelle with its fan-vaulting and faint scent of apricots, all spring up overnight like bubbles of earth, unsustained by nature, existing in a void. And I could believe that it has been the same with him; he came alive from the desire of the woods.''
Which is a speculation on the narrator's part and even true their is no indication of agency issues or that being of the forest somehow means being evil. All in all theirs nothing suggesting this he's evil by nature or anything like that. Hes a nasty sadist and bully.
Heinous standard ?
He doesn't kill anyone but rape is kinda rare for this anthology. Theirs only one other case in the sleeping beauty story which involves a creepy count sleeping with the dead body of a child. And we'll that's ick. The victim wasn't alive like here so it's not heinous. He though has raped possibly dozens and then turns them into birds for his collection.
Now the stories are pretty dicsconnected but I think him and Marquis occupy unique niches to not step on each other's toes. Torture Technian The Bluebeard vs Serial Rapist The Collector
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yes to the Erl-King.
The Draftsman of Doom
Marquis and the Erl King.
Dr. Zeppo
to the Erl King
Okay... So what I'm gathering from Vortex is the majority voted to cut him from MB (with several admitting he sounds like a Sore Loser or Smug Snake) and he certainly meets the heinous standard required for this trope. The only issue that remains is, is he a Not-So-Well-Intentioned Extremist? Well for one Queen Victoria was horrified, when his crimes were revealed, and he envoked fear to the other characters with anti heroes like Barok Van Zieks hating him, to people being afraid to go against him for fear of being "rubbed out". If he really were a WIE would he really invoke this much fear into people?
He's also a tyrant, turning a blind eye when Megundal (a killer) is found not guilty and just kinda admits with cold indifference when Megundal ends up dead by the final killer (the bitter son of the victim) of the first game. Honestly looking back, he gives me a lot of Light Yagami vibes, but without any redeeming qualities like Light had in Anime beyond his FAE attitude, if that even counts for anything. He pretends to be your friend and stabs you in the back. His crime free ideal was more or less a dictatorship and it's implied he wished harm on the Queen too. I'd say with all that said he's worth consideration. But I respect your decision all the same.
I would have settled this sooner but I wanted help from someone much more familiar with this trope (Fried Warthog didn't respond to my PM so I kinda gave up) and MB than me as I have made questionable calls on characters before despite writing some good ones.
Edited by Klavice on Dec 1st 2019 at 2:46:11 AM